XH Motorcycles Forum
Motorcycle Resource Forums => Technical Resource Discussion => Topic started by: franknsr on January 03, 2023, 02:56:48 PM
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Some of you may recall that our friend rt 66 John aka John Faulhaber came up with a regulator upgrade that does not send unwanted to voltage back into the stator, which allows it to run cooler and in theory, will allow it to last longer.
I did this mod about 5 years ago when my stator burnt out. I just opened the primary back up for an unrelated issue and my stator still looked great. Now keep in mind that the original stator lasted about 17 years, and the new one has only been installed for about 5, so this might still be anecdotal at this point, but thought I'd share this anyhow.
Here is the original write up on the mod for anyone who is interested.
https://xhmotorcycles.com/forums/index.php?topic=856.msg2393#msg2393
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WOW!!
That picture made a believer out of me. Those things usually end up dark brown or black, even when they’re “good.”
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Hmm...something must be wrong with that stator...it's not black and burnt....
Makes me wonder, why do so many OEM mfgrs use the method of shunting back to the stator (or regulator) when apparently there are other methods.
Some electrical engineer knowledgeable about charging systems might know.
I don't recall this being discussed in the design of our bikes, as we already had too many irons in the fire and items like this would be addressed post production when fine tuning the product, and if someone was aware of the problem and a solution! With an external mounted regulator and alternator it may not be an issue, but with a stator located inside an engine, it would seem additional heat would not be a good factor....for the engine or the stator.
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Yeah Dan, as you know: a fixed output charging system like the Super X is exactly the same as so many other bikes.
I used to own a GL1200 Gold Wing. The regulator made noise in the audio system. You could hear it as whine that changed with engine RPM. The interesting thing is the noise went away when you pulled the brake lever. The reason the brake light caused the noise to go away is, the extra current got used by the brake filaments and the regulator circuit no longer had to do its job for those moments.
I had this debate with someone in the past because so many Japanese bikes suffer the same failures. I was of the belief that the regulator used transistors to short the extra current to ground in a pulse-width-modulated (PWM) fashion. This would mean the alternator would always see maximum output load.
He said they did no such thing and used Silicon Controlled Rectifiers (SCRs) to connect and disconnect the windings from the rest of the charging system (also PWM). If this is true, the alternator would only output what was needed.
It may be that we were both correct and the Shindengen regulator uses the second type of control method. From online articles, it looks like they use MOSFET transistors but the effect would be the same: the alternator would only output what it needed and no more.
It always comes down to cost. The manufacturers of these charging systems design them for the highest performance at the lowest cost (or highest profit). If they think they can get away with shorting current to ground, that's their responsibility and the customer (the OEM) would never know what method they employed.
If you were in a telecon with your supplier's engineers, they would tell you that it was your engine designer's problem for not providing adequate cooling, rather than having to provide you 2,000 replacement regulators. They aren't interested in what's 'best', only what meets the requirements of their contract.
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Frank... That's hard to believe..
But there it is... Almost new
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Keep in mind that I might only have about 8000 miles on it at this point, compared to the 20 something - ish thousand on the burnt out one, but still, I think its pretty good. Cam across the pic of the one one when it failed.
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I'd like to write about this one again. I think its pertinent still today.
As I've had 2 owners in the past year, who have heard about these shuntless regulators, but possibly didn't know how to search for this feed.
I know I will be purchasing one of these shuntless regulators in the future..... not sure when, but I will. Just had my primary off a couple week ago, and then again a few months ago. Very surprised how "coked" up my stator was. I do realize that my stator having this problem, was most likely attributed to the fact that the connector from the stator to the regulator was pretty much welded together due to heat impingement. And I think this heat was due to possible bleed of voltage across the 3 leads at that connector.
Besides the fact this community has cooled down our wonderful machines thru tunes and fan assisted oil coolers... I'm not sure if it cool enough for our stators.... I have no proof either way.
My side line story that I've asked around about for many years now, may have finally answered where as I can understand/comprehend in my itty bitty head.
My question was.... what created more heat at the stator? Running all electricals while riding, or not running any?
This question came about, as I know riders that will not turn on any extra electrical devices, and others that run as much as possible.
Answer? .... The stator runs WOT, no matter if any electrical devices are on or not, when the engine is running. This answer cinched it for me to buy a shuntless regulator.
I'm looking forward to any responses... pro and con. I want to resolve this issue.
Bruce
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Hey Bruce, this is an old post, but I've been thinking about it again. Maybe I need to pay a visit to Nebraski with some parts and do a guest spot of grampa grumpy pants channel so we can talk about this upgrade. Could be fun and there might be a couple steaks involved. Just sayin.
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Well I'm in....could be fun, grumpy back or not!!
Was budgeting for this, this year.... but loosing the stator that was on borrowed time at the 25th, may prevent that happening this year.
For those reading along....as far as I know, My X was the only X to loose a stator at this event.
Duane Judge did work on a couple.... program tunes? .... not sure. Anyway about it, it all appeared minor to me.
I quote that my stator was on borrowed time, as my video where I pulled my primary off demonstrating "how to" proceedures last winter, I noted in the video and to myself that the stator was pretty crispy.
And for those that don't know, word is that this batch of stators that Dan was so generous in having produced, are supposed to be of a better quality/design.
Lastly.... as per request from (Prez of club) Mike Locklear, I'll probably be making a new "stator replacement" video on my youtube channel in the near future.
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Folks, I did the stator on 862 which looked good, took bike out this weekend and batter light came on. Now I'm going to properly trobleshoot the stator that I got from Mike to make sure it didn't crap out but I hate to admit it, maybe the regulator is going and I lazily just did the stator which did ohm out to specs. So whats up with the regulators upgrade and how many folks have had problems with regulators. I don't want to buy a new one if they are not robust enough or have issues.
frank c
862
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Wow... interesting you bring up the regulator...
In my 25 years within this community, I haven't heard of very many regulators going out. An X owner in Mexico contacted the facebook page within the past week, stating his regulator needs replaced. I'm sure regulators do go out, but .....
The idea behind the (I can't call it an official upgrade, as I haven't heard anyone with smarts say that this is the way to go) "upgrade" regulator, is to keep our stators running cooler, and quit burning them up. I'm currently putting in the new notOEM regulator in my X 525.
Been trying to complete a new video installing this regulator and a new stator.... but my back has been pretty angry lately on and off. I'm way over due, on a new video on my channel. should have it complete within a week if I'm lucky.
I know of 2 owners running these regulators, with ZERO issues.
From what I'm reading, you replaced your stator, without testing it? As you state that your stator didn't look bad. Oh well.... no biggie.
Stator test... unplug stator from regulator.... put volt meter on VAC onto the stator end of the connector.... start X, and throttle up.... needs to read 55VAC+ on all 3 leads (test between the 3 leads only, do not ground).
Regulator test... volt meter on battery, should read on DC....13 volts or more with rev's. Test fails.... please keep in mind that the leads from the regulator to the battery run under the bike. There these leads can get hit (ask me how I know), and/or degrade from exposure to water. You very well may want to test if you have a circuit on those leads.
Leads good, volts not so much, I'd guess regulator.
The regulator we are using is a (not OEM) Shindengen SH775BA. New around $150 on ebay. I recieved a used from Frank to give a try. I'm guessing used is much cheaper, if you are a tight wad like me.
As far as I have gotten it appears to be almost a bolt on switcher roo. (some custom extending hole slots)
Please fully read the original lead on this topic, as I'm no electrical genius.... just shade tree here... https://xhmotorcycles.com/forums/index.php?topic=856.msg2393#msg2393
Interesting side note: Right here on this site after a long time of asking, I got an answer. Thru the years I've had owners tell me that not to run all the electrical options, to keep the stator cool. Others have told me to run everything, to keep the stator cool. Guess what, neither is true. The Stator runs charge WOT all the time, no matter what is being used. Thus the heat issue. Thanx Greg!!
And please come back if you have any other questions.... we'll help.
Bruce
FlatlandersupportingXworld
AKA grampa grumpy pants.
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Thanks Bruce, I assumed my stator was bad because I had no voltage at battery and didn't ohm out till later. Also i have 15k on my bike and stator looked great, I did all my mods when I bought the bike new in 99 plus my oil cooler really does well. Thanks, now I am going to do this right.
I wish I can take old regulator apart but that epoxy stuff is a killer.
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yeah.... OEM and this after market regulators are both "none" fixable with all that product pour around it...
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I don't know if anyone is anticipating in wait for my new video... Its been over 3 weeks and I'm still not finished. I apologize for that, my back issue gets in the way.
Per a some discussion with Frank, I've learned quite a bit. Frank sent me a used regulator mentioned above. He also sent me a video explaining a few things.
For such a short video, its packed full of information, and I saved it. I'm no computer wiz, but I'll give it a try and send a copy/link upon request. Franks cool beans.
Here's what I've discovered in this process.... :
I still cant solder worth a hoot.... I got it done, and it works, but nothing pretty. I may edit out eventually, or just for giggles leave it in.
Frank mentioned he changed the position of the regulator, as he wanted the connectors to point down, not sideways (bolt holes/slots make it sideways). I discovered that it will not work with the connectors coming out the side. The motor mount is just way too close, so I have to do some customizing to mount it with connectors down.
The new electrical connectors he sent with the regulator, were/are very foreign to me and my experience. I fought them for close to 30 minutes. Once I had them figured out it was a piece of cake. I'm a slow learner, plus way out of practice in the shop. Its been a long 4+ months I've out of my shop. This video maybe some comic relief for some viewers as they watch me drop tools and fasteners.
I'll keep working on this.... and it'll get done, I just can't promise how soon. At the moment, it looks like within the next few days. Its also looking like it maybe a 2 parter. As an avid youtuber, I myself don't care for a video that goes over 30+ minutes.
that's it for now.....
Bruce