XH Motorcycles Forum
Motorcycle Resource Forums => Technical Resource Discussion => Topic started by: Donkey Hotey on August 09, 2015, 11:49:46 AM
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1525 gets to have her engine removed.
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/27.jpg)
Here is how she sits right now:
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/26.jpg)
I know I have to remove the electronics cover to pull the sensors and wires hiding under there. Do the front cast mounts stay attached to the engine during removal or do they get in the way? Floorboards (more of that damned thread locker!)? I don't want to needlessly bust those bolts loose (always an adventure on these bikes).
The front frame mounting cups are off, the rear bolts are out, the exhaust mount is off. It's just not clear to me which side this engine is meant to be removed from. I also assume it has to tilt to clear the opening once the cylinders are back on? There is no other way I can see the cam covers clearing the frame.
Off to Home Depot to buy some foam pipe insulation to wrap this frame. Any tips or a link to engine removal and reinstallation methods would be much appreciated.
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OK, engine is out. It was easy with no cylinders. So which side does it go back in? Should the electronics box have been unbolted and removed? I disassembled it as far as I could but the thread locker stopped me again. I'll drill the head off and deal with it if that's how it's supposed to come apart and go back together. I was able to tilt the engine upward and fish it out but, that ain't gonna' fly with the barrels back on.
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/28.jpg)
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Greg,
So sorry I didn't respond quicker for you....
but was having window's 10 issues....
To be honest, I haven't ever taken the engine out of an X.... but have tried to pay attention via www with those who have....
I was under the impression that removal of the valve covers would be sufficient for clearances...
I can't answer about the ECU..... unless there is something obvious that I'm missing...
First picture is showing the threads out of the case from the head bolts... correct? is this the reason you pulled the engine.
I had this issue on 525. As you are this far along (I didn't pull my engine).... I strongly advise you to check the depth of those thread bolt holes. My head was leaking due to one of the head bolt holes WAS NOT deep enough for proper seating and sealing.
So when got the tyme sert kit, we had to drill the whole almost a 1/4" deeper so that the head could be pulled down correctly. With conversation with Jamie years ago about this same issue..... many X's had that "one" bolt hole not near enough deep.
I'm also highly recommending Jamie/Marty's head stud kit. Its expensive, but if you ever have to get in there again, it will be much easier.
I'm also studying closely your process.... apparently the valve covers didn't relief enough room for the engine removal.... and so the heads were removed...
any/all/more information you share here will be much appreciated. And I'll try and help anyway I can ...
Good Luck Greg!!
Bruce
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Hey Bruce, your response is valued but, it's not your responsibility to be the answerer of all problems. Thank you. Yes, my hope is to not just get through this but post it so others can find it in the future.
Yes, I already have Atlantic's stud kit. That picture with the threads pulled out is from me test-threading the holes and checking depth. That was the second one and the threads just came out on the stud when I removed it.
It's been disappointing to hear how many clueless people have commented to me in real life about what a POS my bike must be. I guess they never worked on any other sand cast engines. This is insanely common on BMW Airheads, old VWs, etc, etc. I even stumbled onto a specific Harley Time-sert kit that includes all the right length inserts and other tools to do the job for their cases. Spark plug replacement kits, cylinder head kits...so many people who obviously don't work on their own stuff and don't know about the failures. Sad, really. Onward and upward as somebody wrote... :)
Engine installation / Removal:
I can imagine the valve covers would provide extra clearance but, that can't be the way they went in at the factory. That's what I'm looking for: can it be done complete, and if so, how? Now that it's out, it would make sense to bench assemble it and close it out.
I'm going to make some hoisting plates to bolt to the intake ports--ala Chevy engine hoist adapter plate. From that, I can hang the weight of the engine from a cherry picker and just tilt and guide it into the frame with the weight suspended. The frame is already padded with pipe insulation (if you didn't notice) and the engine will get wrapped with a moving blanket as it's bumping into the opening.
Electrical Box:
It wasn't the ECU I was questioning. The entire electronics area is bolted to a couple of plates. It honestly looks to me like if that gets all the bolts taken loose and pushed out of the way or completely removed, the whole engine bay opens up. My guess is that got built after engine installation on the assembly line. I'm not sure if it needs to come out for engine removal or if it's just more convenient that way.
Hole Depths:
I already have an email in to Jamie but, he's a busy guy. If he's not able to respond, it would be nice to know if somebody else has the information.
My main question to him was on hole depths (exactly as you mentioned). I seem to remember reading this somewhere else. The hole you see in the picture? That and one other were over half an inch shallower than the remaining six holes. Based on what you just posted, I wonder if the bolt bottomed out at the factory and ripped those threads loose long ago?
Sitting on top of the bike, the back-right hole on the front jug and the front-left hole on the rear jug are the two shallow ones. Think about where those are: right in the center of the V, my concern and question to Jamie was: is there a reason for them being shallow? Is there no material behind them? An oil galley? I don't want to just go punching a drill into them if there is a good reason they were manufactured that way.
Knowing that the engines were CNC machined, it's hard to imagine a manufacturing process where they'd end up with a couple of random, inconsistent hole depths for no reason at all. I am not getting super precision measurements with a digital caliper just shoved down a hole, yet all the others were consistent: right around 1.64" deep. The two shallow ones were 1.113 and 1.033!
Being manufactured on a CNC, if a drill broke or slipped, creating shallow holes, the following tap would never know and would snap instantly as it hit the bottom. That would scrap the part and it would never make it out that way. That's why I believe those holes were not accidental. Maybe it was unnecessary for the engineer to design it that way, or the CNC programmer to program it that way but, it wasn't an accident. Heck, I've met and talked to the vendor that manufactured our cases and they seemed like a first-rate outfit. That's another story...
Sooo...
- Is there a reason the holes can't be drilled all the way to 1.64" deep?
- If not, how deep CAN I go?
The Time-sert website says that you need to select an insert that is 1/4" shorter than the hole depth. That allows some room for the partial threads at the nose of the tap, and a seating area for the locking feature on the insert. 1.64" deep, minus 0.25 = 1.39". The next shorter insert is 1.2" so that's what I selected. I have enough coming to do all eight holes the same but, I also bought two of the 0.870s for the shallow holes (just in case).
The 1.2" inserts need 1.45-1.50 of hole. If it's safe to take the hole that deep, that's what I'll do and all eight will get matching inserts. I'd just like to not experiment on this engine. Somebody out there has to know the answer after all these years.
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my bolt hole was ....
as you sit on bike...
rear jug....
top left.....
same place head gasket blew out....
when we went deeper.... we crossed out fingers.... to match the other holes... went very well....
my threads came out when I was cleaning the threads out via running bolts up and down.... about the 4th time....
Bruce
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Based on both of our bikes being the same location, we can assume it was designed that way for a reason. I don't want to figure out why on MY engine. :)
After discussion with Jamie, I'm not going to drill any deeper than what's there now.
The tap drill size for the Time-sert kit is 29/64ths. McMaster sells a 29/64ths endmill with a 3/8 (reduced) shank.
On those two shallow holes, I may square up the bottom of the pointed drill hole with that endmill. That will add another 0.136" of usable wall (for threads). I'm going to thread as far as I dare, then trim a couple of longer inserts to custom fit the hole depth. It may mess up the locking feature but, I'm going to red loctite them anyway.
Atlantic's stud kit has 1.17" worth of thread and I want as much of that engaged in material as possible.
Speaking of red loctite: what was the brand and formulation of the thread locker on our bikes? This is one of the few places where I would welcome that level of hold (insert walls). Filling all the voids in the thread will only make the joint stronger. I searched the web but, couldn't find it. I know it's been posted before.
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I was under the Impression it was orange permanet "loc tit brand all these years.
In speaking with Jamie back when my head gasket let go..... I thought Jamie said not all of the Xs had a shallow hole... but most did. Been a while..
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Sorry for the delay in reply... Call me if you want, 703-675-5046 and I'll give you some thoughts... Computer is down and I'm slow to get to the library to get on line...
Jumper
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Thanks Jumper. It's going to be a few weeks out before I get to swinging this engine back toward the frame. The engine just got up on the mill table yesterday and fixtured tonight. It's bolted in solidly to the machine, the front cylinder is trammed to the spindle within half-a-thousandth and the first hole is indicated into center the same tolerance. When my 29/64ths endmill shows up, I'm going to start installing Time-serts. Glad that I took the extra hour to just pull the engine.
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/31.jpg)
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/32.jpg)
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/33.jpg)
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/34.jpg)
I was reluctant to pull the engine because I knew I'd start thinking about the rest of the internals. I know that I should do the transmission and install the scavenge pickup while I'm in this far. The thing is at face level. It ain't ever going to get easier than now. I'm just afraid of losing the momentum again. It's been in pieces for too long.
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Wow Greg, I'm impressed. It looks like you have all the right equipment. This ought to be one sweet running X when you're done with it.
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You know , you might want to look into breaking it in half and balance that bad boy's crank ...just my 2 cents ..... very impressive work you are doing
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Wow Greg, I'm impressed. It looks like you have all the right equipment. This ought to be one sweet running X when you're done with it.
Thanks Mike. Yes, it was a great running bike when it was still together. Its story is scattered around but, I had four other running motorcycles when I bought it and I only owned it four months before it blew the spark plug hole. In that short time, I piled a bit over 5,000 miles on it. If It had stayed running, I'd have worn it out by now. I've reasoned that the time it has spent in pieces, just added to the future riding I'd still be able to do with it. :)
You know , you might want to look into breaking it in half and balance that bad boy's crank ...just my 2 cents ..... very impressive work you are doing
Yeah, no. :) Weren't the 2000s supposed to have slightly different balancing anyway? I would prefer to not ever see either of my bikes crankshaft's out on the bench.
As for the work I'm doing, thank you. I'm pretty sure this is something like how Atlantic would do it. I'm just trying to stack the odds on the side of success...and sharing for future owners who have to tread this same path.
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I can now say, with personal authority, that the two shallow cylinder stud holes were NOT a mistake at the factory and you CANNOT even afford to flat-bottom the holes to buy a few more threads.
I bought a 29/64ths endmill and my ONLY intent was to flat-bottom the existing V-bottom drill holes on two of the studs. When the mill came up and I went to blow the chips out of the hole, the masking tape on the rest of the engine openings ballooned up. Yes, it very slightly cut into an adjacent oil passage--my worst fear.
Since the passage ends up in the back of the scavenge pump, I'm going to assume it's a drain-back line from the cam boxes. Nonetheless, I prepared a ball of JB Weld, put it down the hole and packed it in lightly, before installing the Time-sert above it (no, the Time-sert was not actually touching the plug). Mickey mouse? Maybe. Nothing else could be done. I'll also RTV the stud before I install it, just in case the JB Weld ever leaks.
No, I didn't repeat this on the second shallow hole. All of the other holes measured 1.65" deep. All the inserts are done, tight and installed with red Loctite. They are as close to being part of the parent material as possible.
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Oh greg how exasperating....
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Hey Donkey (I feel like Shrek now) Thanks for sharing your experience here. Hope I never have to dive in that far but if I do it's nice to know you are leaving this trail of bread crumbs for me to find my way.
Frank
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I'm still surprised that after 15 years, there isn't more of this knowledge archived on the various boards. There are almost 2000 bikes out there. That's why I'm committed to this one. I've looked for discussions I know I participated in on the Yahoo message boards and can't find most of them. Yes, I searched all the splinter groups as well. I had a lot of posts. Yahoo's search engine must think it's all just archived banter.
I seem to remember that the Resource Board and one other were the main repository of service and technical information. I am almost positive that I posted the night 1525 blew the spark plug hole and came home on the tow truck. I was looking for that post so I could figure out how long it's been since she moved under her own power. The renewal date on the plate is still Aug 2001.
Now that I'm in this deep, I'm pulling the transmission. I figure it only costs me a primary gasket and the two seals to inspect it. If I find anything wrong, I can fix it and may have saved myself future damage. If I find nothing wrong, I can update the circlips and call it good.
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This is what the scream of having made an epic mistake looks like:
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/46.jpg)
Just to the lower left, you can see the allen head of the manufacturing plug where that oil galley was drilled at the factory.
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You know a good welder to repair that hole Greg? I might be able to find someone skilled enough to do the metallurgy required to fix that boo boo.
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No, not taking the chance on welding that. Too close to too many things. It got cleaned really well, a blob of JB Weld dropped in and tamped into the bottom, and it's done. It's going back together as soon as the transmission parts from Atlantic show up. While the bike was apart, I figured it was time to do the transmission and oil pickup tube.
I took delivery of the bike in the crate in July of 2000.
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/11.jpg)
I prepped her myself.
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/14.jpg)
It's my bike and I'm keeping it until I die. No other hands have touched this bike since it left Belle Plaine. I wanted to keep it that way. I have the tools and there really was no excuse to not do the transmission bushings myself.
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/70.jpg)
The five split bushings that came out of the gears on the right, two blanks pressed into their gears and waiting for final sizing and one gear waiting for the blank to be pressed in.
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/71.jpg)
Final sizing of one of the gears.
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/73.jpg)
Even owning my own machines, I'm not sure the job was worth doing on my own. Doing only two bikes, I didn't invest in permanent workholding for the gears. Each one was a time consuming setup to get it right. Multiply that by five gears and I spent a lot of time tapping gears into plane and setting the center of the chuck with a test indicator. After that, I burned through maybe $50 of bronze to make the bearings. The job is worth every dime of paying Atlantic's machine shop to do it.
But no other hands have touched my bike since it left the factory. ;D
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Might as well do all 8 head bolt holes since your there...
;)
Jumper
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Already ahead of you. Who would only do the stripped ones? Never mind. Atlantic's picture gallery said enough. That's not how I roll. :)
The inserts are long since done. The transmission bearings were done over a week ago. I was just waiting for the circlips and shift kit parts to come from Atlantic. Then work intruded and tied me up for seven solid days. Off to the Westec tradeshow for the next 2-3 days, then back to reassembly.
I have not verified this yet but, the starter motor seems to be the keystone to getting the engine in and out of the frame. Remove the starter and it allows the engine to move forward enough to clear everything in the back and on top.
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A little tidbit that other owners may be interested in. I just weighed the assembled engine. It's complete, except for the throttle body. Complete engine weight is approximately 235 pounds and the fore-aft center of gravity seems to be right at crank centerline.
That's vaguely important because I plan to use a hoist to hold the engine as it's guided back into the frame. Knowing to lift straight above the V in between the cylinders will simplify the job. I was originally worried that the CG was further back and it would be hard to balance and still clear the frame.
Based on the cam boxes being taller on the right side and that the intake ports are skewed to the same side, I'm going to guess that the engine should be hoisted from the intake port screws and guided in from the right side of the frame.
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1525's engine is back in the frame and soon to be restarted. As promised, here is the information for the knowledge banks of future owners:
The engine is supposed to be installed and removed from the right side of the motorcycle.
To do this, the battery box needs to be disassembled and removed from the left side of the bike. The shroud below the fuses and above the battery also comes out at this point. It allows some up-down movement of the engine. The right side electrical box can be left in the bike but, you'll end up taking a bunch of the connectors apart to make clearance anyway.
After all the connections are taken off the engine, it would also make sense to wrap all the frame rails with pipe insulation as I've done in this photo. They were all zip-tied in place to keep them from moving.
Finally: the keystone: remove the two bolts holding the starter motor and remove it from the engine. That little bit allows the engine to move forward in the frame and to hug the right downtube as it's tilted and removed.
The engine drops down slightly in the frame, then tilts to the right so the cam boxes clear the top tube. From there, you lift upward and toward the right of the bike, while still hugging the right downtube with the cylinder. The front and rear of the engine WILL come out and you can do it without damaging anything if you pad the frame ahead of time.
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/excelsior/115.jpg)
Reinstallation is obviously the reverse. I steered the front cylinder into the frame at an angle. Once it bumped against the padded downtube, I swung the back of the engine into the frame opening. Once in the frame space, drop it down between the two cradle tubes. It will sit down low enough for the heads to tip into place. From there, the engine needs to be raised to final position and the mounts reinstalled.