XH Motorcycles Forum
Motorcycle Resource Forums => Technical Resource Discussion => Topic started by: Donkey Hotey on September 28, 2015, 01:59:24 AM
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I've searched both Yahoo and here and not found the answers I need. Does anybody know for sure, what method was used to paint our bikes? Were some different than others (black vs the candies)? What I'm most interested in is the origin of the clear coat. I think I read somewhere that the clear layer was powdercoat. True? Or is it just a high-build clear? If it's paint, it can be somewhat convincingly blended.
I am now the happy owner of 333 (black). Her left side cap is not sealed internally for some reason. That led to gasoline getting under the clear coat and causing it to peel. I can obviously reline the tank but, that doesn't fix the clear coat. I'd really like to avoid repainting the tank because I honestly don't trust anybody to get the sticker placement and striping right again. I'm going to first attempt to sand and blend the clear. It's on the left side so--downhill when the bike is parked. It's not the most visible spot. I think I can save it.
If not: do we have anybody identified that can do a really faithful repaint on our tins? I'm not looking for cheap, I'm looking for good. With that said, I'm going to be one pissed off SOB if I pay a lot and it doesn't look factory original. Anybody got somebody they can recommend?
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I bought some Duplicolor touch-up paint today. A rattle can of black, one clear and a small brush applicator kit. Time to fix some of the blemishes on 333.
I'd really like to learn from what others have done. In the absence of that, I'll share what I've learned as I go.
There is some clear coat peeling around the left cap. I picked a piece of the disbonded material off and measured it with a caliper: 0.012"! Twelve thousandths of an inch of just CLEAR!
According to the Meguiar's website, a typical automotive clear layer is only 0.001-0.002" thick. Six times as much clear as a typical paint job. That explains the shine on our factory finishes.
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Greg....
I've been refraining from responding on your paint questions as I'm self taught paint/body guy. I've been doing it for years and now I'm trying to avoid it... As my itty bitty head is much more picky than my hand skills.... Its taking me longer and longer to get where I want to complete a paint.....
I'm no paint engineer... But I've never heard the rumor about powder coat clear OEM on our bikes. What Powder coat I've dealt with and our clear..... I'm reasonably sure, our clear and spray on.
Its as soft as any spray on I've ever dealt with. And every powder coat I've dealt with is hard as Iron. Our clear coat is very thick.... note to yourself to look at the front fender on an OEM virgin paint. A lot of our X's have chips around the rivets,.... which I think is attributed to the flexing in the front fender vs. the thickness of the clear.
I'm not sure about your avoidness to getting the tank sticker properly placed.... but my trick was to take a couple of pictures of it, before, with a ruler in the shot at 2 different angles...
Rattle can paint scares the hell out of me. I've never had any good luck with it, and a lot of times it will not cooperate with other paints. I realize a lot of owners deal with "duplicolor" and feel comfortable with it..... I'm not one of them.
Although there is probably over 100 different black shades of paint out there, duplicolor will be black. I really don't recommend duplicolor for any of our colored paints, including the Oyster/silvers.....
I'm used to dupont products. This doesn't mean its any better or worse than anyone else, just means I'm used to it. The companies each have their little nuances, and dances to make each of their products work. And then there are the grades of paint, and what you want to use it for.... all makes my head hurt.
Where as our OEM colors are PPG's elite premium grade. I believe PPG calls it "international" grade or colors.... something like that. If you just wonder into a PPG store and hand them the code numbers, and you have an unexperienced mixer.... he'll never find that color, as there are some alpha codes that go with it. You have to explain it is very hi grade.....
Because I don't like to jump thru all those hoops and I don't know a good mixer in my part of the country. I have an excellent paint mixer (and close friend) at our local dupont store. And he has gotten our colors matched very well so far for me, when needed. At a fraction of that Elite PPG International grade paint.
Jamie/Marty used to, and I believe still do stock a little bit of the PPG paint. And last I knew they sold it at no profit..... 86bux for 1/2 pint?... which compared to my dupont mix of approx, 50 bux/quart. ...
Dunno if any of this helped Greg or not... but thats my piece....
We have several owners out there that paint besides me, PLUS many owners out there that have wonderfully skilled paint shops in their neighborhoods... ... hopefully someone will speak up....
Bruce
flatlandersupportingXworld
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OOPS....
and just for the sake of advertising/plugging.....
If any of you have seen the pictures of the Tribute X bike anywhere on the www or this site. I personally know that painter, and would highly recommend him if you wish to have any custom paint work done.
He's really good.....
Bruce
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Bruce, I totally appreciate all that you shared. I've done a fair bit of hobby painting in my past. That means that I'm no expert but, with a lot of effort and patience, I can pull of simple things like a solid black with a clear coat. Candies and pearls? I don't know. The cost of such materials has stopped me in the past and I know all the variables with spraying that stuff consistently. I'm pretty sure I'm not that good.
But 333 is your basic black X. The color code is PPG 9700. If I walk into a paint & body store, the guy is going to point to the can of "OEM Black" behind me, right next to the primers. I only know this because I once owned a black car and repeatedly asked about different grades of black. They always told me that unless it was a metallic or something like that, "black is black."
I also totally hear your fear on the Duplicolor stuff. The only reason I'm using it is because of the hassles of buying and spraying small amounts of paint. Unlike 99% of the rattle can stuff out there, I've had very good luck spotting in, clear coating and rubbing out their stuff. When you consider the cost per ounce, it's waaayyy overpriced but, I'm paying for convenience.
I've refinished some carbon fiber parts on my Buells with their clear. It's astonishing that it comes out of a rattle can--absolutely perfect results (after color sanding and buffing).
I even had a Cagiva gas tank where the factory clear was flaking. I was prepping it to exhibit at a vintage Italian bike show. My long-term choice was lose the factory paint job and the irreplaceable stickers, or at least try to preserve what was there with Duplicolor clear. I scuffed the factory clear, feathered the edges of the flaked areas, then reshot it with their rattlecan. I was stunned at how good it looked. I expected to see faint witness lines where it had flaked (it wasn't very thick to begin with). Nope. Two full cans of their clear and color sanded it after a couple of days and it looked great--nearly like new.
333 had some kind of decal on the tank, visible here in the photo from Gregg's registry entry:
(http://www.excelsiorhenderson.com/pages/registry/images/0333_1.jpg)
I don't know who removed that decal but it looks like they did it with a bowie knife and a spade tip shovel. There are multiple gouges in the top of the tank. I suspect it was somebody at the Harley dealer in Sturgis, where the bike was sold (the Harley hate for these bikes still cracks me up--morons). The gouges go down to the primer. Out of curiosity, I measured the depth with a caliper: 0.010". The gouges are a mess.
The problem I have with repainting the tank isn't just the decal placement. I could do a great paint job on the tank, and even get the stickers in the right place and clear over it all. My problem would be reproducing the stripes. I can't do that and I don't know anybody who does. I wouldn't be happy if it weren't done right. I've seen repainted Xs and the giveaway is usually the sticker placement or the stripes. I won't pick on somebody's bike but, I could find a google picture of one of those paint jobs in about 10 seconds.
It also looks like something got run over on this bike. The lower lip of the fender got smacked and bent under and forward. That's much, much better than bending backward, which would have stretched the metal. The damage is all below the edge of that character line running around the fender. Of course the paint flaked. That is so far down that none of my friends looking at the bike has noticed it until I pointed it out. It also has a few chips along the leading edge (as so many do). It's not worth losing the striping to fix either of those blemishes.
Somebody also violently cross threaded the rear seat bolt riv-nut (yes, I wrote violently). They spun the riv-nut in the sheetmetal. It was so screwed up that it also put a dimple in metal because it pulled the seat down at an angle. The damage is very small but, being right in the center of that big expanse of metal (I'm running without the passenger seat), it's glaring.
So my choices:
- Full repaint and risk having the pinstripes bugging me forever more. It also takes away from the bragging right that I can point to the paint and say, "See? Look at this! This was a FACTORY paint job!" I'd rather not go there. I'm more about preservation.
- Do nothing. Plenty of people have told me I'm being too anal. It's a 15 year old motorcycle. It has some bumps and bruises. Live with it. Uhhh...no.
- Touch up the areas the best I can. I can hammer and dolly that little bit of damage at the bottom of the fender. I won't even use body filler. Just getting it dollied back into shape and smoothed out will achieve 99% of the intended goal. Nobody will ever notice it once the paint goes back on, gets some clear and gets color sanded. Even if there's a visible transition in the clear, it's well hidden and will look better than the damage. Ditto for the flaking clear around the left gas cap, gouges on the tank top and the chips at the leading edge of the fender: blended and black will look better than what's there now.
Out of the three choices, #3 achieves the most with the least dollars. #2 is just downright lazy and #1 is still an option if #3 doesn't work convincingly.
With a can of Duplicolor, I can still make the bike look better than 90% of the factory Harley paint jobs out there. :P
And...this is a good place to discuss it for future owners in exactly the same situation.
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I'm no machiniest.... so in your ealier posts... I barely could follow along....
but speaking about your paint work.... and what you want.... we appear to be on the same page.... well at least in the same chapter...
I'm not anal... well I don't think so... some folks would argue...
I don't know how to pin stripe... but have a couple of leads if needed. ... I was even at one time going to try to teach myself......
what I ended up doing was using a very thin vinyl masking tap.... same width as the pin stripe... and its very flexible.... and placed it on top of the pin stripe.... I've repainted all of my tin at least once. .... if someone were to crawl around and look, you would see some issues... but you'd have to be that close. ... throwed down the color.... pulled the masking... laid down the clear .... sanded the "hump"... laid down another coat of clear...... again a little more sanding... looks very good for me...
buff as desired....
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The clear coat is a powder coat ...trust me ...they didn't spend 6 million on a half ass paint facility,
which was the best in this whole world ....the technology was awsome back then.... they were ahead of their time !!! research it !
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Wow..no idea...
Swift ended up with it right?
Wonder ho.has it now?
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Bob, you said to research it and that's what I'm trying to do. Where is the evidence that they were--in fact--powder coat? I'm all ears and I genuinely need to know.
Supporting the powder coat theory: it's an assembly line. They need to process parts quickly and efficiently. Based on how much clear there is on 333's tank, I don't see any way they could 'paint' that much material on a production basis. A thick powder coat finish would be much easier to apply at that thickness.
Supporting the paint theory: the tank decals would have to be some magical, special stuff to withstand the temperatures of a powdercoat oven. Powder coat that I'm familiar with cures in the region of 390-400F. That is damn hot for recently applied paint and it's outside the range of what I'd expect a printed decal to survive.
So far, Bruce's theory makes the most sense. Maybe this is an urban legend that has been perpetuated through the years? What sources do you know of that say it's powder coat?
I've been using the tiny Duplicolor fountain-pen tip to fill the scratches on the tank. Man, that thing is expensive but, convenient. I can slide the tip across the scratch, drop it right in the center and surgically apply some touch-up paint. I'm sure I'll be able to block it all flat in a week or so. It looks good so far. The clear is still the big question mark.
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The paint process was done all by robotic,spraying,striping ,decals were by hand with a location jig, then sent to powder coating ,fenders included ...no assembly line ...just booths with robotics ...email Dan he'll tell ya...I'll try and dig up PROOF ...for you all this all my reading and understanding about the bikes ...it's been years ago that I read about this stuff, so I hope I saved it !!!!! alot of pictures were out there from the factory too....
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You all look in the HERITAGE section of this site and read the full article about the finishing process
thanks berlin bob
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You are correct, sir. Thank you!
Found it here:
http://www.excelsiorhenderson.com/pages/heritage/mswf2.html
According to the article, the clear coat is PPG Enviroclear. Now the issue is that I can't find anything on that material. From the related materials I'm finding, it sounds like it's the same stuff they put as clear coat on painted aluminum wheels. The flaking behavior and thickness match so, I could buy that.
So now what to do with this tank? If it's an acrylic powder coat, blending may not be possible. Maybe I can find somebody willing to sand the edges, then recoat the entire tank.
I also have a very bad leak at the dummy cap bung. It's belching fuel. Not just dripping but, enough that sloshing fuel gushes out of the gap. Today was the first time I filled it to the top. That was the cause of the damage in the first place. I guessed I would need to line the tank but, there may be something structurally wrong. Anybody else seen one of those leak like that?
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There have been a few tanks that leak at the left cap. Resealing may cure the problem. Have also seen some leak at the tank mount by the seat where the Germans may have been a little light on the welding...
I also went and looked at the Video on the Paint System. I don't know enough to give you suggestion, but I'm sure there is a Paint Man out there that can do what you seek..
Jumper
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I know a guy who does really high-end tank sealing, here in North Hollywood. I'm going to end up taking the tank to him. He actually has two or three sealing technologies. None of them are the Kreem type. His lining is best described as a poly liner. It's really impressive stuff.
http://www.gastanklining.com/
He used to do custom paint as well. He doesn't have the time or space to do it anymore. He'll know what to do, as long as I can tell him if the clear is paint or powder. Now that it's been answered, the tank needs to go down there.
I need to take the tank from this guy too: 1991 Buell RS1200 Westwind (one of Erik Buell's very early, handmade bikes). It's fiberglass with a Kreme liner. Ethanol ate the liner years ago. It's just a ticking time bomb before the fiberglass resin gets destroyed. Come to think of it, the clear on this one is also right on the verge of looking like the Super X. The ethanol got under the cap gasket and started to discolor and disbond the clear.
(http://www.cifumotorsports.com/ak/buellrs/34.jpg)
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I relined a tank that I had ...yeh screwed up the finish ...red & oyster color the paint shop matched the paint....awsome job ...he didn't have a problem with our clear coat.. just in case I gave him a set of decals ...he did an awsome job...Marty and jamie can reline your tank for approx. 400.
last time i checked...the guy uses a sand blaster with a camera attached then relines the tank...preserving the paint job ...next time i will do dat ...berlin bob
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There have been a few tanks that leak at the left cap. Resealing may cure the problem.
Since I asked about the leaky left cap, I figured I would follow-up with it here.
I finally put a compressed air hose in the right tank opening and tried to blow some air in there to see where the fuel was leaking. Well, THAT was easy! The entire center cap in the dummy bung just popped up and air hissed out. I guess those were bonded in place at the factory and the magic goo failed.
A trip to the local auto parts store found a Permatex two-part epoxy for sealing metal gas tanks. It's specifically made to be ethanol resistant, which the factory adhesive may not have liked.
I removed the metal disc at the bottom of the opening, sanded it clean, wiped out the opening with a paper towel and carb cleaner and waited for it to dry.
I made a ball of the epoxy and pressed the ball into a pancake, on the round disc, working it out to the edges in a donut shape. I dropped that in the opening, screwed the dummy cap in on top of it, to press it to the bottom, then removed to check my work. It squeezed out beautifully and uniformly all the way around. In fact, it now looks just like 1989 and 1525's tanks.
It'll be cured by morning. I'll check it for any further leaks, then get back to fixing her paint.
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OK, new question: I've looked at the PPG paint codes listed here in the archives. Each color is listed as a single PPG code. I thought the colored bikes were candies: a silver metallic basecoat, translucent color coat and a clear topcoat. I remember researching the oyster and finding a supplier that had the three-material kits, with a catalyst ($$$).
So were they originally single color, or candy?
And on the blue / silver bikes, is the silver just the basecoat with a clear and blue gets the additional color coat? Or are they two distinct colors? Do they share the same basecoat? I'm interested in what it would take to duplicate the blue / silver on a repaint (not 333).
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:D I found a great article on the powder coating process used by EH. I'll try to attach it here. According to this article, the clear coat is also a powder coat. Try this link: http://www.filedropper.com/pwr1746 or this one: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5fzfv1f6f70i494/PWR1746.pdf?dl=0
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Mike, that's an outstanding find and different to the article linked in the archives here earlier. Thank you!
I haven't had time to read it yet but, in skimming the article, it said 0.0035" of clear. As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I picked a chunk of the clear off of 333 and it physically measured in at 0.012" (from around the gas cap area). That's a LOT of clear!
Still wondering about the discrepancies between the color types. A simple color would be much easier to apply than a candy.
Oh yeah, which serial number was that Minnesota Vikings bike? Man, that must be beautiful. I stumbled onto that oddball when reviewing the numbers of bikes made in each color. Wow!
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Yeah, I'd love to have that Vikings bike......and I'm not even a football fan!
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The Vikings inspired me to do a Steelers bike for my wife ,who is a big fan...I used my new Deadwood I had because of the color scheme ...I'll try and post a pic of it
berlin bob
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Bob, that looks like a beautiful bike. Did they just repaint above the stripe or was that an entire repaint and stripe?
I may have figured out a way to make paint masks from a set of tins. Lay striping tape over the factory pinstripes. Wipe everything down with mold release. Lay a couple of layers of fiberglass over the paint and the stripe lines, making sure to get it into key reference points on the parent item, like the seat inserts on the fender, the instrument well on the tank and the fork holes on the front fender. After the glass sets, pop them off, then cut and sand the fiberglass back to the line left inside by the striping tape.
The finished result would be a perfect, form-fitting fiberglass guide template for each part. It could be used to trace mask lines onto a tank for a two-tone, as well as a guide for duplicating the factory pinstripes.
Anybody have links to more pictures of the Vikings bike?
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I supplied a new set of sheetmetal...and a spare tank and fenders to be duplicated by the painter/artist...I put it on paper what I wanted and he did the rest...still saved the deadwood sheet metal...I removed the steelers metal and sold the bike to Canada ... dam thing only had 64 miles on it ...I'll get another one later when funds are there...in the middle of moving now
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Jamies lining is also ethanol proof unlike all the products out there claiming they are... its a true commercial grade liner.... thus the price Jamie tacks on.... plus they didn't want to get into motorcycle tanks from what I understand.
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Hi All! I am Bob Utech and I am a very early employee of Excelsior-Henderson when they were located in Burnsville and had no production facitlity. I was their paint engineer and I personally designed the paint system at Excelsior-Henderson. I have also written a Book called Powder Coating - A Guide To High Performance Powder Coating! The paint used for the clear coat was powder coat! It was PPG and was lacquer powder that had to be continually cooled or it would go bad. I chose this because it was very clear, easy to apply, chip resistant, and left the surface in a very smooth condition. PPG was the chosen pretreatment and paint supplier for Excelsior-Henderson. Base coats were acrylic enamels that ran through 3 booths and covered with lacquer clear-coats. We used SATA spray guns for base coats and Nordson powder booths and equipment. The decals were placed by hand. I had Metro Sound and Light of St. Paul MN make me a CD rom that I placed into a electronic device that produced an exact duplicate of the decal position upon the fuel tank and the operator simply needed to position the decal in the same position and stick it. It worked very well!
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Wow! Thank you for chiming in! Just the information we need.
Can you share which paint colors were single-stage vs candy (silver base with translucent top coat)? I found one side advertising replacement paint kits as candies yet, the PPG paint codes listed here, only list a single material for each color.
Anything at all that you can think would be relevant to maintaining or restoring these finishes would be appreciated.
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Okay, bumping my own old thread. The tank I started the thread with has been half-finished for too long. I took the bike out on Sunday. It blew the clear fuel pump hose inside the tank and stranded me. So now the tank is off and the fuel pump is out. I have everything to fix it but the paint waited long enough.
Not knowing a brand I trusted to be a good clear at a low price, I erred on the side of stupid: a quart kit of House of Kolor urethane show-clear. I’m doing the last touchup and blending of black around the left gas cap right now. When that’s cured a few days, I’ll clear the whole tank.
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well.....
black is black is black with me.... I've used dupont "raven" black on 525.... with no issues. I'm sure this makes me sound like someone who know something, and to be frank, I'm trying to get out of any body work any more. I just don't like dealing with all the mess, and fumes. Maybe I'm getting lazy too.
I didn't read all the past threads, but my paint guy says the ppg OEM code is null and void... ppg doesn't make that level of paint anymore...
haven't had any real issues with matching colors, as my paint guy is very good..... oh well, all old news.
I've sent 2 emails your direction.... your filter (junkmailfilter) keeps kicking me out....
Bruce
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Yeah, I’m using duplicolor black in a rattle can. It’s convenient for small spot repairs. The left cap on this tank was leaking and fuel got under the clear, damaging it out into the field of paint. The clear has been hell to blend because more and more of it is damaged as I try to feather it. It keeps disbdonding and flaking, leaving a hard edge.
I think I’m into good clear finally (2” out from the cap!). Once that’s blended, the new clear should mostly hide those transitions. It’s the best I can do without repainting the tank.
And I’ve turned the spam filter all the way down. No idea why it was causing you an issue. Sorry.