XH Motorcycles Forum

Motorcycle Resource Forums => Technical Resource Discussion => Topic started by: J.K. on August 04, 2016, 12:38:59 PM

Title: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 04, 2016, 12:38:59 PM
Ok,
so the bike had fresh battery, oil and fuel.
Fuel pump spins up fine, everything working  but no thing to the plugs ... no spark.
Connected up to diagnostic through OBD port and bike shows no fault codes.
Its going to be another couple of days before I get another chance to mess about with it so ..
Anyone any suggestions on first things to check before getting really involved and stripping the tank back off?

where is the "tilt switch" situated is it easy to get to? # edit - my bad, just found the wiring schematic and the parts diagrams.... DOH !
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: wytfut on August 04, 2016, 10:03:08 PM
Tilt switch isn't easy.... its under rear fender with the ECU. ...
you can get there without pulling rear tire, but its a lot easier if you pull it... saves lots of aggravation. ...

The tilt switches are getting old and i'm sure have gotten wet...   it stands to reason...

another point of interest would be engine speed sensor, its located on the bottom of the engine up front. that allen head is a tuffy to get out, but if you take off the motor mounts makes a little easier access...

Bruce
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 05, 2016, 05:53:30 AM
had  half an hour this morning before I go out ..the cover is off and have the tilt switch out - no obvious corrosion anywhere...everything on this bike is a pain in the ass so far, someone has rounded off a lot of the allen head bolts inside. ( was the rear oil drain plug originally a 9mm allen key - mine is mashed and hacked .... the one on the other bike is even worse... totally rounded off and currently refusing to budge!)

Would I get away with just draining the oil from the front drain plug or will it not all drain ?

will try bypassing it if I get time over the weekend, havent looked at the wiring diagram but am guessing just connect the red to the orange to bypass the tilt switch?
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 05, 2016, 01:05:35 PM
got back early today and did a few tests around the tilt switch and it seems fine.
Starting to move towards a bad crank sensor which would sort of fit in with this bike having an intermittent cut out problem before it was laid up. I suppose the crank sensor may have been starting to fail as it was a cut out when warmed up that was reported and maybe now it has given up completely...........
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 05, 2016, 03:34:39 PM
another point of interest would be engine speed sensor, its located on the bottom of the engine up front. that allen head is a tuffy to get out, but if you take off the motor mounts makes a little easier access...

Bruce

isnt that the crank position sensor up front?
looks like a REAL pig to get out... and my next port of call!

anyone know of a compatible crank postion sensor and best place to pick one up?
The interchange list gives a Triumph part number which hhave been ideal for me in the UK , but I just looked at it and it looks completely different to the sensor on the bike.........
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: wytfut on August 05, 2016, 05:07:50 PM
yes.....
crank sensor....  I get so confused....
on this site is a copy of the factory shop manual....   I believe it shows how to test that crank sensor...

I haven't seen the triumph crank sensor in person.... but I'd believe that it should look pretty similar, as both bikes use the same era Sagem electronics....   
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 05, 2016, 06:15:14 PM
ohh... and you werent wrong - the cover on the ECU and tilt switch was a real PITA to get off without removing the rear wheel.
I havent even thought about trying to get it back on yet!
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: wytfut on August 06, 2016, 06:42:28 AM
Yeah it tempting to leave on every time you have to go there, but it's a holiday lot less aggravation to take it off
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 06, 2016, 09:45:52 AM
(http://)
yes.....
crank sensor....  I get so confused....
on this site is a copy of the factory shop manual....   I believe it shows how to test that crank sensor...

I haven't seen the triumph crank sensor in person.... but I'd believe that it should look pretty similar, as both bikes use the same era Sagem electronics....


this is it here -
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: wytfut on August 06, 2016, 04:53:55 PM
I also found out today that the cross reference list on this site is not correct from Jamie Jones.
I'm going to try and get it up dated. I apologize for any inconvenience ...
Bruce
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: Donkey Hotey on August 08, 2016, 02:22:12 AM
Unfortunately, the crank sensor can be faulty and still not show a problem when hooked to a computer nor set any codes.

First giveaway: crank the engine and look at the tachometer. Does the tachometer needle move as you're cranking? If it stays at zero, you've either got a bad sensor or broken wire going to the sensor. I'd bet on a bad sensor.

After that, I'd pull the coils one at a time, put a spark plug into the coil and ground it. Repeat the cranking test and look for spark. Could be bad coils but, unlikely that both would fail at the same time.

And for you guys talking about what a bear it is to remove: if it's hard to remove, it's because the front engine mounts are probably bad. With fresh rubber mounts, the screws should both be accessible and the sensor should easily slide out. The cross member only gets in the way if those mounts are bad.

You can guess how I learned this (http://www.ehforums.com/ehwebsite/forums/index.php?topic=226.0).  ;D
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: moodier on August 09, 2016, 11:29:09 AM
Regard that crank sensor!I tried as mentioned on here ign on cranked it no tach movement!That would sound like might be bad.Bike has 8K miles and is number 31 so very early one believe it was used for testing mostly and at factory to the closing!Suppositly it was updated to that point but I have done nothing since!Any thoughts afraid I am not much of a mech when it comes to all this modern electronics!I thought there was a fellow back near the old factory that worked on these and had parts?Maybe best if I can find him probably a 100 mile drive but still may be better than me fiddling with it!Any help much appreciated!
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 09, 2016, 11:39:00 AM
well, its an interesting one and not something I had previously noticed so I tried it on both bikes that I have here.
The tacho doesnt show ANY movement on either bike whilst cranking them over on the starter - yet the other bike has no running or starting issues...so obviously doesnt have a crank sensor issue.

( although it does seem to have a slight problem with the starter not engaging correctly everytime!!)
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: wytfut on August 09, 2016, 09:05:15 PM
JK.....
I found it bothersome that you were using cross reference parts lists off of this web site and they led you astray... so I'm trying to get them updated and corrected.
I found that the crank position sensor (as you did) is incorrect. The ECM is incorrect. And I can't tell on the engine temp sensor, as the picture on triumphestore.com is way too small. Other than those 3 everything else appears to be correct for face value.
I apologize that these were not correct, as I have never used this specific list. I've been using a cross referencel list from way back in the day yahoo site "Dealer 38"....   
Just for your information.... I found some other numbers for that crank sensor, that maybe you can make work? From my little bitty desk here, they don't come up on anything.
Sagem part # 01VR004   and I believe this one is a triumph part VRSensor.... I know vague at the best.


flatlandersupportingXworld
Bruce
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 09, 2016, 11:57:02 PM
Hi,
 appreciate your help , thanks.
Cant find anything on the web for that part number so far thought
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: moodier on August 10, 2016, 10:37:22 AM
Need to try tocontact the fellow down toward Belle Plaine that I understand was working on the EHs.Need to get it running so can at least try to sell it!Ran fine last year when parked it now no spark?Thanks!
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 13, 2016, 06:28:56 AM
well, I pulled the crank sensor on 1301 and tested it and its definately gone...
So I pulled the sensor from 1304 and put it in 1301.........guess what...
The bike started virtually immediately and runs super , super, sweet!

I have searched the net and cant find crank sensors anywhere and still cant contact atlantic EH, tried emailing the other week and got no replies to my 2 emails and no one answers the phone........
I will try again today as its Saturday maybe someone will be around?

Unless anyone knows of a cross referenced part number for a usable crank sensor??

The one listed in the cross reference section on here is definately wrong - maybe its the same sensor but with a different wiring arrangement??
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: Berlin Bob on August 13, 2016, 06:46:02 AM
Have ya tried John Jones, Minnesota Super X ???   he still has parts  or even  Dan Hanlon
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 13, 2016, 07:06:24 AM
Have ya tried John Jones, Minnesota Super X ???   he still has parts  or even  Dan Hanlon

tried all the numbers except for Dan Hanlon ............no one answered but maybe I am just too impatient and just need to keep trying !
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: wytfut on August 13, 2016, 08:59:49 AM
JK
Terry Cahalane with O'cathalains still has a bunch of bits and pieces (small stuff).
He's pretty much off the grid for a phone call (montana), but watches his email very closely. I've used him several times in the past year ...
Give him a try.... he's honest, quick, and cheap on parts if he has it....
And by the way, tell him hi for me...
He may just have one..... don't know unless you ask.... his email is    ehparts@cahalane.us  .... I usually contact him on his Ebay mail, as he has stuff on ebay all the time....
Bruce
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 13, 2016, 12:12:23 PM
Hi,
thanks for that, I have already bought a few items from Terry, and yes he is a great guy to deal with.
Unfortuantely I already know he doesnt have any Crank sensors as I asked him when buying other parts before the bikes were exported.
I will keep trying to get responses from others.
cheers!
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 13, 2016, 12:15:25 PM
oh... and almost forgot to mention - very strange goings on.....
Just as a last ditch attempt at a temporary cure I compltely cleaned that "faulty" sensor removed from 1301 and put it in 1304.... cranked it over twice and surprise surprise it started right up and ran fine!
Its probably still a faulty sensor but odd that its now working.... especially considering it wouldnt even try to start when in 1301........... damned electrickery..
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: wytfut on August 13, 2016, 12:53:17 PM
Lol.....   that's funny....

I remember Phil Marks story with his crank sensor....   
It was bad, but if he could cool it off, he could get a few more miles out of it...

He'd pour something cool and off he'd to
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 13, 2016, 01:22:45 PM
Lol.....   that's funny....

I remember Phil Marks story with his crank sensor....   
It was bad, but if he could cool it off, he could get a few more miles out of it...

He'd pour something cool and off he'd to

but this sensor never got hot at all, or cooled - it just got moved.... weird........  :o
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: blackheart on August 21, 2016, 09:56:54 AM
The first thing you should try on any of these magnetic proximity sensors is to clean off the tip & reinstall.  The presence of magnetic debris lowers the output signal strength off the sensor.  I've seen this on alot of transmissions on automobiles
Title: Re: no spark, no fault codes - recommendations to check first?
Post by: J.K. on August 21, 2016, 10:01:08 AM
The first thing you should try on any of these magnetic proximity sensors is to clean off the tip & reinstall.  The presence of magnetic debris lowers the output signal strength off the sensor.  I've seen this on alot of transmissions on automobiles


yeah, thats all it could possibly be down to - unless it fails to run again..