XH Motorcycles Forum
Motorcycle Resource Forums => Technical Resource Discussion => Topic started by: steampunk on February 25, 2017, 11:38:01 AM
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Hi Folks,
I'm a newbie here having bought #1228 with engine #1915 from Chuck in MN late last summer. Unfortunately a work accident ended my riding season after only 300 or so miles but they were more comfortable than my semi-old sportster. With near 30,000 miles the bike has all the upgrades, mostly from John's Repair in LaSeur, MN. It even has a site glass on the oil pump cover. (any info on where the oil should be in the glass?)
Doing winter maintenance I noted the rear cylinder spark plug was wet and black! Alarming! But I noticed that overnight the plug dried leading me to suspect gas rather than oil fouling (opinions?) With the exhaust off I noted heavy black soot in the exhaust port. The front cylinder plug was a nice tan and little to no soot in the exhaust port. It was running on NGK plugs and Denso coils (#129700-4070) The coils both show 12.5 resistance, slightly above the manual's 11.75-12.25. There is an apparently nearly new oxygen sensor. The non-mufflers are 18" short shots without baffles or packing, just a 6" spark arrestor with several large holes drilled in it. The bike started at 2200 rpm, slowed to 1100 rpm fairly quickly, then hit a 900 rpm idle when fully warmed up (say 20 miles). The gas milage (premium)seemed poor. The engine heaved fore and aft alarmingly at idle but steadied with increased rpm.
Since the motor mounts were all overtorqued to 80 ft.lbs. and had incorrect hardware I replaced the mounts with all OEMs and corrected the hardware issues (missing front spacer and rear washer)
Removing the rear coil I found it had a split/deteriorated spark plug boot. Looking inside the boot at the coil to plug contacts they appeared corroded (alloy?) or at least jammed with debris. The engine casing and cylinders were so spotless I suspect it was steam or pressure washed and that pushed water/debris up the deteriorated boot. I cleaned the coil to plug contacts out and found another coil to plug boot. I used dialectic grease on the new Champion 809's and the coil boot.
I brushed as much soot as possible (brass wire brush) out of the exhaust port. I added 12" baffles and one layer of packing to the short shots. The old gaskets look so good (the nuts on the studs were barely snugged) I am tempted to re-use them though I have new ones (Does the make me a couple dollars wise and hundreds foolish?)
I did a compression check at room temp and got 155 front and 145 rear which is mid-range specs. What difference would a warmer engine make? (How do you take gas tank, coils, and plugs off a hot engine?)
Does it sound like I have covered my bases or are there other things I should be looking at over the wet, black plug that dries and sooty cylinder?
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Sounds like you have a stuck injector (stuck open)... Grime, what ever...
Either clean it yourself or, exchange both with Jamie/Marty at superXparts.com...
FlatlanderssupportingXworld
Bruce
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Also.... That site glass is a very cool look... But it means absolutely nothing. I know from personal experience....
Do the dip stick dance (do our know it? If not ask and I'll let you know..
Bruce
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Thanks for considering my issue.
I took the injectors out and they had equal resistance mid-spec. Considering the leakage/stuck issue I removed the fuel rail, removed and inspected the injectors, and replaced the bottom O-rings when re-installing.
To test them I was wondering if turning on the key so the fuel pump set pressure and see if it kept running with the engine off. Would that work? It is fairly easy to get at the injectors with most of the bike assembled.
I also looked at some $35 aftermarket injectors. Too good a deal?
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Oh yeah, the dance?
I do remember the warm-up, stand up section in the manual. If that's it i'll have to review it. If not . . .
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I'm no electrical wizard, but I believe you shooting the injectors with your volt meter only tells you if the injector will operate, and not if it is plugged..... I could be wrong....
I do like your little test with the injector out of the intake idea.... that MAY be the way to find out.
A little side note: I just saw a few weeks ago, a process to clean out injectors just like ours on youtube... and it looked to me to be very effective. involved 12 volts, and a syringe with some solvent.
the dip stick dance....
first you need to recognize, that your X will not keep 4 fresh quarts of oil in it. When you do an oil change, you'll have to know your machine and figure exactly how much oil your X likes to run on. A good starting place for me is around 3 quarts and 6 oz. ... Not to worry if you put 4 quarts in, your X will puke out what it doesn't like. If you crankcase vent line has not been removed from air cleaner, to another remote spot (behind the rear tire is the favored spot), pull your air cleaner and get that excess oil off of it.... plugged air filter can cause issues
Next you need to know, your X will never drain the last quart.... so don' t worry about not getting a full 4 quarts in your X. On an oil change your X will have about 4 quarts and some odd oz.
lastly.... if you do not have the pick up tube update on your X.... never warm it up on the kick stand. Its been proven several times that on the kick stand that the engine will cavitate air... not a good thing.
lets begin..... its really not that tough, just unusual...
straddle the X to keep it up right. start it up. Run at least 2,500 rpms on warmed up oil, for 45 seconds.
shut the X off, put on side stand, and pull your dip stick, wipe it off, and put back into tube for true reading when you pull it out again. If the oil is on any of the hash marks, you're good.
Several owners may respond or ponder my answer here, as there are a couple of different dip sticks and with hash marks in different heights. My take is if it is on the hash marks you're good to go.
Why this process? Because of the design of how our X's are chambered... the oil settling, will not be anywhere near the dip stick. Running the engine, will pull up the oil into the the correct chamber, and you'll get your correct reading on the dipstick.
As owners we for the most part know, that even though the company went to great lengths to work out all of the bugs on our X's, they are still in a sense proto types. I look at the total number produced, as a big clue.
If you have slash cut mufflers and you live in a retirement village, I don't suggest you check your oil everyday on the way to work early in the morning... LOLOLOL
Bruce
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forgot to ask....
did you actually test those spark plugs to see if they really were firing?
AND Steam??
I apologize.... I forgot to welcome you to X world.... they are great machines, and one of kind. I hope you enjoy it as much as the rest of us do.
Bruce
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Ah yes, picking names: Steampunk. I tried to attach a photo of my custom tank paint. '
Gearhead' might be more appropriate but steampunk is more current and I do operate a '30s Red Top Steam boiler that heats a couple buildings.
I think you are correct that the resistance reading doesn't guarantee operation for coils or injectors. I'll have to look into injectors more, especially that U-tube video if I can find it.
I think Chuck is back from vacation this week so I can check with him what type of oil and grease his shop uses so I can match up. If he didn't use synthetic and I do will I have to do 2 or more oil and filter changes to be sure to have all one type of oil?
I'm the Landlord as far as the slash cut shorties go, but I don't want to be the morning alarm clock either ;)
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Nice paint... Very cool
As for changing over to synthetic (I strongly urge you only use syn)... I'm a bit of a tight wad, and that is funny...
If you aren't going to pound a bunch of miles on during season, I'm a believer in no harm.
Syn oil is pricey... Hate seeing it poured out, went it still has good color
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Yes, my oil looks good, probably changed when Chuck got it back a year ago and then just moved it around the shop till I put 300 on it so no rush to change. The oil filter isn't on the cross-reference list (parts master #61365) which googles as a transmission filter. But Chuck sold these bikes for a few years so I figure he should know what works. Again, I'll give him a call once he has had time to settle in from vacation.
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the filters are on the cross reference list....
and somebody back in the early days determined which filters to use grading toward quality.....
Wix best, napa (is wix)... etc. etc. ....
http://www.excelsiorhenderson.com/pages/tech/pdf/EH_Replacement_Parts_Cross_Reference_X.pdf
and if that oil in your X is unknown or NOT synthetic... I wouldn't ride it, until I knew it was synthetic. Our X's run hot. too hot for dinosaur oil....
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Morning,
Jumping back in this discussion a bit I return to testing the fuel injectors.
Taking them out of the engine and then hooking them up to the fuel pump and electrical to see if they leak was not what I was thinking. First, would the injector then need to be grounded to the engine or at least something? Second, bringing misted fuel and electricity in that close of proximity scares the hell out of me. When the injector is in the engine there is a metal barrier between the gas and electric, not so when off engine. I might be a little biased on the issue having had a relative die in a garage fire and explosion from just missing with a little gas when filling a hot lawn tractor. I'm thinking if I could hook the compressor to the injector off the bike with the regulator set to 50 lbs. and see if it leaked air?
My original idea was to leave the injector in the bike, turn the ignition on to run the fuel pump, but not start the engine. Then, wait and see if the fuel pump runs off and on to maintain pressure. If the pump does run then fuel must be leaking somewhere or the pump isn't holding pressure. Then pull plugs to see if they are wet. On paper this sounds good, but that may just be because of things I don't know.
Anyway, I need to do some more homework on injectors as I have time and your suggestions to my wasted fuel issue are helpful.
By the way, what does 'wytfut' stand for Bruce?
Craig
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Hi Steampunk,
Your fuel pump does not cycle on and off based upon pressure. So if you had a leaking injector, the pressure would simply drop. Try putting a pressure gauge on the fuel rail. I also think your idea of placing 50 lbs of air pressure to the injector is a good one, far less risky than fuel.
The best source of information on the fuel injection system on these bikes is Jamie Jones at Atlantic Excelsior-Henderson in Virginia. Nobody knows these bike better, and Jamie is a very cool guy, willing to help out.
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BTW Steampunk, there is a "Steampunk Super-X" that was created for the TV show "Out of the Badlands". It was a Deadwood Special at one time.
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16998819_10210583082646119_4379543087026282656_n.jpg?oh=3363a8140a19e6316faad8866fc18379&oe=5924E156)
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So you got me looking at you tube videos and they all seemed to just blow carburetor cleaner (one guy was using brake cleaner?) through the injector. The issue seemed to be attaching to the top of the injector.
I just put the injectors back on the fuel rail and then used shrink tubing to attach the cleaner tube to the fuel rail inlet: much less size reduction needed. Not near 50 lbs. pressure for leak detection but both injectors worked properly powered by a 9 volt.
When I look at my photo I still think the flammable cleaner and battery were a little too close.
I guess it is back to youtube to figure a way to check whether the coil is firing (it must be some or the cylinder exhaust port wouldn't even be black and sooty, just wet.
I have talked to Jamie and Marty, usually Marty and bought a couple parts from them but they are in business and I can't expect them to give their hard earned knowledge away every time I'm trying to figure something out. I'll just go begging here on the forum . . .
The steampunk bike is quite the bobber. My bike is nearly an 'assembled' bike apparently.
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Oh yeah, I'm sitting here wondering: if the fuel pump doesn't cycle on and off by pressure what does control it?
The above photo is as I got the bike. I have to admit that when I saw it on ebay it stood out from all the other bikes i'd been browsing for months . . .
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Wytfut is the phonic spelling of my real last name... Whitefoot.
No I'm not..... Not that there is anything Wron with that...... Just for you Mike Locklear!!
OK Mr. Mike here I've always thought the pump was self regulating...... What does govern the pump to come on and off
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The pump gets a signal for 2-3 seconds from the ECU on initial key on. Then, when the engine is running, the ECU keeps it energized. Pressure is regulated in the tank by the regulator which bleeds off excessive pressure while the pump is running. So any cycling on and off by the pump is done by the ECU and is not based upon actual fuel pressure. Pressure is mechanically regulated by the regulator whether the pump is running or not.
And if I am wrong, Jamie will send bad voodoo my way!
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Coils passed primary and secondary resistance tests, also spark on the bench from the battery.
Fuel injectors w/in electrical spec and cleaned. No leak at bench test (spray can pressure).
ECM tune is 8352.
The only thing I have found wrong on the "sooty cylinder" is the bad boot and the fouled plug to coil connection.
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Thanx Mike!!
Steam... I'm at a loss at this point
Wet and sooty
Injectors test good..
Appears to be running good..
Coils test good..
Compression good
Change plugs again would be my next step. Had an issue with brand new plugs 2 years ago. 5 out of 8 brand new plugs were bad.
Have you done any sort of vacuum leak?
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If it's not missing out under heavy loads then this more or less states the coil & plug would not be causing misfire at lighter loads.
Since it's the rear cylinder which has the o2 sensor use a high impedance VOM which will read out the average DC mV when engine is hot and you are above idle say at 1500 rpm. It should be in closed loop and thus it will be rapidly fluctuating from far less than 0.45v to far more. 450 mV is stiochiometric combustion and is where most ecm's would be trimming fuel to. It might be they have it set to something slightly higher to run cooler such as 500 or even 600 mV. But still you should see it fluctuate rapidly which means it's in closed loop. Unless it's above 600 mV continuous I'd say your soot may be oil consumption, especially if it's shiny on the base of the plug.
If it were the front cylinder we could expect to find a vacuum leak on the rear possibly and the ecm would be dumping in extra fuel to compensate for the leak on the rear while the front with no leak is overly rich.
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Thanx Rick!!
Hope all is good in St. Jo!!
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Thanks both wytfut and blackheart, but I don't understand why neither of you like my fouled boot theory:
With a fouled, but not completely insulated, coil to plug connection at low rpm and cold the firing pulse from the coil would have a harder time getting the coil discharge across the fouled connection to the plug. With only the front cylinder firing regularly the engine would certainly heave fore and aft as mine did. As rpm increases the bike would be producing a stronger current which would more easily cross the fouled connection. Also as the bike warms the fouled coil to plug connection would probably provide less resistance (like insulation breaking down under heat inside a coil) and the bike would again run better as mine would finally get down to normal idle rpm after 20 miles.
I guess I'll find out in spring when I hopefully ride the roads with it. Although it is 50+ degrees and a thunderstorm that woke me out of bed here in Deeetroit this morning.
I have to go to a dictionary and textbook to follow some of Blackheart's terminology!
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To be honest steam...
I thought it was a given, that you'd replace..
Bruce
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I'm too poor to throw money at the bike--at least until I can make a full assessment of what I have. I don't want to buy coils or injectors and then find some other crucial and expensive problems. It was running down the road with freeway traffic or stop lights last year, just the engine heaving at idle and poor gas milage, then the black and wet plug which air dried itself overnight. The ride sure beat hell out of my sportster which is great for quick errands around town.
You have certainly helped me figure out what is defective or not with everything coming back with a passing grade so far.
Today, after breaking my 3/8 T45 and buying a new 3/8 and 1/2 T45 and soaking the bolts, I hope to get the rear wheel off and check/grease the bearings,etc. I haven't figured yet how much wheel disassembly I'll have to do to inspect the bearings (this one, i'm told, has been sleeved long ago with a double bearing on the drive side). I guess taking off the drive pulley would have me on the proper side. Anything I should watch for in particular?
But one step at a time, caliper bolts first. The front caliper had hex head bolts while the back has torx: Were the front caliper bolts replaced? Is that a good idea or only if needed? I can get hardened bolts . . .
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Steampunk,
For quite a while, I had an engine miss while riding 901. I could never get it to do it when the bike was stationary, so I could never determine which cylinder it was. Both plugs looked good, but I changed them anyway. Still every once in a while, I got a misfire. Sometimes it would be really bad and the bike would loose power and shake a lot. Other times it was very slight, and barely noticeable.
Finally, after about a year of this very intermittent problem pissing me off, the front cylinder quit altogether.....bad coil. Once I replaced the coil, the bike has run perfect since.
So I guess what I am saying is, ride the bike and enjoy it. If everything checks out good, other symptoms may crop up later to give you guidance to the problem.
Mike
901 741
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Hi 2CoolWheels,
My F150 was doing much like you describe, missing under load, intermittent misses, etc just as you describe your bike did. All told me coil, I did a spark test in the ignition wires, no problem. Got worse so went to the shop: COIL.
But the symptoms I'm describing for this X are different: It runs fine at speed or under load, no misses discernable. It idles well when fully warmed up (like 20 miles). it is at low rpm and cold the engine heaved two and fro, the idle fast (1100 rpm).
If all else on the bike checks out maybe I'll come back to them if it nags me.
Took the rear wheel off today (red locktite on the caliper bolts) Bearings feel good with pulley and rotor on. Not sure whether I should remove them to inspect the wheel hub to sleeve. Double bearing on pulley side. The bearings are a little tighter to turn than I expected but then my experience is with tapered p/u or car wheels. I don't find any play.
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Steam..
Not sure why it takes 20 miles to fully warm up.....
Ambient temps 70+ here, mine is warmed up within quarter mile...
Heaving at idle reminds me of stuck jet... Not the case here, Lets try cleaning the AIC tube out... And the plunger, maybe it's hanging up.. does the vacuum port on top of the body have a good plug. Symptoms there probably wouldn't be like yours, but OEM rubber plug does fall apart.
Brake calipers are torx front and rear. OEM is orange lok tiite (permanent), a real bitch to work with. Sometimes a lot of heat with a soldering gun, or a jewelers torch helps.
If bearings spin smooth.... Only other thing to look at, does the bearing just fall out?... Lololol, had that issue last fall.
Lastly... As rediculous as it may seem, run a little sea foam thru it acouple tank fulls. I still don't trust those injectors. I've solved a couple of X issues just doing that.
My cold idle start is around 1500, and OEM warm idle is supposed to be as close to 950 as possible.
Out mention your tune?.. did you X come with the CD and cable?... Your symptoms should show
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Hey Wytfut,
By the "AIC" are you referring to the Idle Air Control? If so, I did get John's Repair air cleaner loose but haven't taken out the throttle body yet. I'll be looking into it, thanks. But as you know, a problem there would probably show in both cylinders.
There has been some messing around with the ECM area. Tilt switch is gone and the connector jumped. I'll have to look into the 'vacuum plug'. The bike has 8352 in felt tip, I think there is an 8352B? I'll search that here too. (Also George Soine is felt tipped on the side)
I've heard good and bad about seafoam. That I can do when up and running if my problem persists. I'll look into take lining issues as well.
Before putting the bike inside 70 was probably about ambient average, a little less. 2200 rpm start, 1100 first 20 miles, then 900. That is part of what makes me think the fouled coil/plug connection could have been the problem: When hot that connection would more easily transmit current and I would think it would take a while for the engine heat to travel to the top of the plug and boot.
Fortunately, my bearings didn't fall out. 8). Since it came with nearly new tires I knew the wheel had been off recently but that didn't mean the bearings where greased. They look and feel good. I'm going to polish up the wheel and check the spokes, both a bit rough.
No examinator, cable, or CD. I have downloaded manuals but the service portion is missing a lot of diagrams/illustrations. I go back and forth between parts manual and service manual.
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Craig....
A lot of the tilt switches have gotten rusted thru the years and prevented starts.... so there are a growing number of them that are getting jumpers...
I know of no 8352B..... that doesn't mean there isn't... it means I haven't heard of it.
I do have a later tune than 8352, built by another X owner.... that I really do like... But I'd guess there maybe a few other tunes out there by some of our more rambunctious owners....
2200rpm cold start is way too hi.... I'm now guessing your computer is trying to compensate for that missing spark....
The factory manual is missing large pieces.... although I heard someone did finish it later... but don't remember who...
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All this Injector play, don't forget to check the intake gaskets...
Jumper
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The bike has been reassembled and shop started.
Only the fouled coil to plug connection was found wrong, due to a deteriorating boot. The idle is quickly close to speck and the engine no longer heaves to and fro.
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PS
Thanks to all for the help.
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That's good news!!