XH Motorcycles Forum
Motorcycle Resource Forums => Technical Resource Discussion => Topic started by: mendonjo on November 22, 2018, 07:21:29 PM
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Hello Everyone,
I'm pretty new to EH ownership (s/n 1315) but am having a few issues I was hoping to get some guidance on.
Firstly the bike has 12.9k miles on it, I bought it with the updated air filter support and a super wide air filter. It has slash cut mufflers and the gas is fresh. After I got the bike I sent the ECM to Atlantic for the Super X tune but the problems I will describe still remain.
Problem: When I start the bike it fires right up - for about one second and then it dies. Sometimes I have to do this 3 or 4 times before it will stay running.
Problem 2: It has a definite weak spot off idle. It gets much better when the bike is hot but when its cold/warm I have to keep blipping the throttle to keep from dying right off idle.
The IAC does indeed move, the plugs are newish. Any ideas would be much appreciated.
Joe
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My first guess and probably correct one is going to be bad o rings on the fuel regulator and where the regulator mates to the pump. I’ve had two bikes with the exact same symptoms and it was a lack of fuel pressure getting to the injectors. If those o rings are bad the pump can work as hard as it wants and the o rings just dump it all back into the tank.
The rough and erratic idle may also be partly due to a bad vacuum plug on the throttle body. Make sure that thing is sealed.
The slightly less possible problem would be leaking intake seals on the manifild at the heads. Basically if air is leaking into the intake the idle air controller works overtime trying to open and close to maintain a constant idle.
Oh, and welcome aboard. These bikes are really a treasure to have.
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Thanks Greg! I bet that's it. I noticed too when restarting the bike jus after it died the fuel pump was going full blast. In retrospect that seemed kinda odd, it only ran for half a second why does the fuel pump need to be working so hard ?
Are the O rings something I have to get from Atlantic or does someone know where to get Viton rings ? (Harbor freight, Autozone, etc)
I sure am glad to have a path to follow - thanks again Greg.
Joe
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There are a couple of different sizes between all of them. You have to carefully pull back the fingers holding the regulator in place to get it apart. There are two different diameters there and a third between the pump outlet and the regulator housing. You could carefully measure them all and get them from McMaster but then you’re buying packages of them for 1 or 2 rings. I’d just order them from Atlantic.
They also have the newer, better sock type filter to put on the inlet. The inlet screen that the factory used is usually toast from the alcohol in the gas. Again: available elsewhere but it’ll take you time to research and find it. Or just buy theirs.
You also need to use a zip tie or two to make sure the flexible plastic fuel hose is held in position properly or it leaks too. There are photos around here of what that looks like when it’s right.
It helps to make a puller to get the pump out. You can probably make your own with a big black ABS sewer pipe cap with a hole drilled in the center. Get one larger than the tank flange and then a screw that fits the center of the fuel pump.
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Shoot . I will post a pic on the facebook page because i cant seem to here but the pump came out fine. One oring between the regulator housing and the brass pump nipple. Everthing seemed ok
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There are also two o rings sealing the regulator to the plastic regulator body. That’s the thing with the metal fingers in the upper left corner of your photo. Those also need to be checked / replaced.
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Yep I took the regulator apart too. The O rings were a little gooey. Only four O rings in total? The big one at the base, the transfer nipple from the pump to the regulator, and the two in the regulator?
Thank you!
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On second inspection the regulator O rings looked pretty bad. Ordered everything from Atlantic :) li
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Those o rings were shot on two of my bikes when I bought them. There’s a fair chance that’s all that was wrong with yours. Post how it turns out. It’ll help others in the future.
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glad you guys got that figured out... cool...
apparently I was enjoying thanksgiving too much... missed all of this until now...
note on those O rings between regulator and pump.... I had one fit so poorly I had to take stailess steel wire (kept breaking off zippys) to hold the reg snug to pump.... for what ever reason that regulator metal housing really isn't machine fit tight, or too tight...
Pulled that pum 3 times by the time I got it snug enuff...
Bruce
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Bruce, how did you discover that was where it was leaking? Man, that would be frustrating to have to find. I think most people find the o-rings on the pump snout but, don't realize there are two more hiding there on that regulator.
1989 took a tow truck ride home after much erratic running before I discovered those extra two o-rings in there.
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Greg....
It just wasn't fitting correctly... By touch... Kept trying to pop off... Were my only clues...
Sorry for SLO replies... Holiday and my wife is getting hip replaced today... Haven't had much X time lately..
Bruce
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Hello Wytfut,
when you say "note on those O rings between regulator and pump.... I had one fit so poorly " do you mean the regulator to the plastic housing it fits into which is held in place by a stainless clamp or the regulator housing to the pump (brass nipple)?
Joe
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Been a while since I've been in there..
And there isnt an exploded ... To remind me. I also was talking to Marty today about 3D building that plastic part for her.
I'm pretty sure yes......
I definitely remember which X it was... Fuel system was a mess
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Joe? Any news? Did your bike start or has snow done you in for the season?
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I replaced the O rings in the fuel pump (2 in the regulator and the two that were stacked that go between the regulator housing in the pump). In fact I just finished the job a few hours ago, the problem was I didn't have a new pump to tank seal and I knew my old one was shot. I ordered one through an industrial supplier - yes I know Atlantic probably has them but I didn't want to bother Marty again, she has been so helpful.
Anyway the X-ring showed up today so I could put it all together. Well I got it back together but it wanted to do the same thing - start then die but the battery was so low I couldn't keep trying to start it. I was pretty frustrated. I didn't know if I fixed it or not.
I then went to Autozone and borrowed their loaner kit for testing fuel pumps. A simple gage and a zillion different fittings. I found a combo that would work. Now at this point I was kinda thinking maybe the problem was the system needed to be bled. I had the battery on a charger.
I hooked up the gage and turned the key and was getting about 15 PSI. I turned it off and on again and got in the 20 range. Then I discovered that If I was fast and hard with the key I would be around 40 psi. 40 psi - I hit the starter and it purred to life without dying.
So at this point I could easily believe it was the O rings that were the problem because they were cracked and formed not like an O ring anymore. My guess is the ethanol gas got to them. Or age.
Also I will keep my eye on the switch. Maybe it just needs to be used a lot or even replaced. Tomorrow the rain is supposed to stop and temps will be close to 70 degrees so I'll try it out.
Thank you DK for all your help - and the mega post you did on ADV rider. I have read it more than once and enjoy it more each time, such an inspiration!
Joe
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But that’s your bike listed on eBay, no? Getting rid of it to buy back your old Harley? Personally, I’d keep both but then, I have issues. ;D
If that IS your bike on eBay, I see it has slash cuts. Man, those things are obnoxiously loud. That could partially kill some of the experience.
Marty and Jamie have brand new, stock mufflers available if the noise is an issue. Or someone may be interested in trading.
Couple of other things I’ll mention since the bike I just bought came from a guy who didn’t connect with it and sold it after only 8 months. None of these may be wrong for you or they may all be wrong:
No, the steering should not shake if you take your hands off the bars. If it does, the steering head needs attention. If the mechanic says they don’t clunk and are fine, get a new mechanic. They need a little preload on them to not shake. That’s true of almost all big motorcycles.
If the engine is vibrating badly going down the higway, the front rubber mounts are probably sheared and dead. The bike should plane out beautifully on the higway and anything else suggests they’re torn. They do that but do not come apart visibly until you remove them from the bike. I’ve even had this sneak up on me gradually as a mount goes bad. One day I’ll get on and, “hey, why does this feel like a piece of crap?”
It should also have very neutral and planted handling. If not, the tires are probably ancient, cheap or both. I’m not a fan of the old Dunlop K491 Elite tires these came with and many people replaced like with like. They are a hard compound (for long life) and had a pattern that led to cupping on the front. As a result, they had poor road feedback and lousy traction. Heck, the rear on 738 is locking up during moderate stops. It has me spooked and is getting trashed tomorrow.
I’ve had great results with Continental Legends. I’ve just bought the newest replacement Dunlops to try on 738: the American Elite. They have a newer pattern with much larger tread blocks (resistant to cupping) and they’re dual compound so they will supposedly have long life with better cornering performance.
Just tossing some things out to you there because some of the bikes I’ve bought had these issues as soon as I got them home. I felt bad for the previous owners who may have partly based their sale decision on performance issues that shouldn’t have been there.
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I snuck out into the garage at 5:30 to test bike - fired right up and did not die! Yeah
Greg,
It is my bike on ebay and really just a wild hair idea of selling it. The bike does not have any issues (well at least now) and if it did it wouldn't scare me, I find it a fun challenge to fix stuff. Heck I enjoy a technical challenge as much as riding. I really like the EH - a lot! But my first bike...I bought it new in 1986 right out of college. Right out, like the 4th day after I started my new job. Well to be clear it is not THE actual bike but it is a 1986 Heritage Softail. First year of the Heritage Softail and they only came in one color. To most its just a clapped out old HD but for me its when life started.
Anyway I would definitely keep the EH if I could. I cant even move around in my garage anymore (47 Indian, 56 Panhead, 85 Shovelhead, and a couple of Honda XL600Rs). Plus I'm married :). My hunch is I will keep the EH anyway - its a bad time to sell and that really is fine with me. I kinda hope the Softail gets sold and then I will promise myself to stop looking.
The EH represents what couldn't be done. An individual deciding to start a motorcycle company? It just seems impossible to me (I am an engineer). I even read Dan's book. When I look at the bike I cant imagine how many man hours it took to solve so many of the engineering and production issues - and those are just the ones I see. So probably I will end up keeping the EH, and that makes me plenty happy.
joe
P.S> Yes the exhaust was too loud but I took the advice of one of the EH members and added a drilled freeze plug to each muffler and it sounds really good to me now.
P.S.S the bike that Tobey has for sale in the classified section is a better deal for someone looking to get into EH ownership. Asking 4k and it has all the accessories! There was a time when Crockers were cheap and you could buy and Indian Chief for $25 :-)
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But my first bike...I bought it new in 1986 right out of college. Right out, like the 4th day after I started my new job. Well to be clear it is not THE actual bike but it is a 1986 Heritage Softail. First year of the Heritage Softail and they only came in one color. To most its just a clapped out old HD but for me its when life started.
Hey, I'm not going to try to talk you into or out of this Harley thing but, you managed to find an stock 1986 Heritage Softail? Or is it a clapped out, altered 1986 Softail? Man a clean, stock survivor would be impressive.
P.S> Yes the exhaust was too loud but I took the advice of one of the EH members and added a drilled freeze plug to each muffler and it sounds really good to me now.
Yeah, I've read about that solution. In my mind, it sounds like it would be more restrictive than the standard, unaltered mufflers. I have nothing to back that up. If it works for you...
P.S.S the bike that Tobey has for sale in the classified section is a better deal for someone looking to get into EH ownership. Asking 4k and it has all the accessories! There was a time when Crockers were cheap and you could buy and Indian Chief for $25 :-)
Yeah, uhhh, there's no such motorcycle for sale. ;D
That's the one with the violent headshake and the bad tires. She's getting new Dunlops in a few hours.
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Hello Everyone,
An update on the X. It ran wonderfully after replacing the O rings in the fuel pump but not for long. A buddy of mine rode it this weekend for a short jaunt and the original problems resurfaced - dying on deceleration and breaking up at high speeds. By the time the ride was over it reverted back to only starting for half a second then dying.
I have been messaging Greg back and forth for advice. He suspects poor grounding and I will tear into that soon. In the meantime I pulled the fuel pump out again (I'm getting pretty good at it) and rechecked the O-rings. Things looked fine and I took Atlantic's advice on putting the O rings into the housing and then pressing regulator in. I will likely test that tonight.
Its really a fun bike and I look forward to having it fully operational, after riding it my old Harley felt like a toy :)
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Joe, again, not sure if my messsge from yesterday morning got to you or not. If you’re getting the backfire, lurching a few times and setting the check engine light, I’d be looking at the grounds. Fuel pressure isn’t detectable by the computer so it wouldn’t set the light.
Of course there’s no guarantee that your bike isn’t having both problems at once (fuel pressure and bad grounds).
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sounds like a loose positive cable on battery ???? these bikes vibrate alot and this is a common thing ????
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Hi Gang,
Tonight I tried the fuel pump. No more luck but I'm really doubting the fuel pump as a problem. I couldn't even keep the bike running with starting fluid. Next I go behind the fake oil tank and start cleaning grounds and of course I will check the battery connections too. Ill keep you posted.
Joe
BTW should the wire connections for speedo, fuel gage, and fuel pump be in the area under the gage cluster (pod) or just somewhere under the tank?
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Under the gauge cluster
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Okay no chance last night to look at the bike (work emergency). In the meantime I have studied the wiring diagram and have a hunch my weak ground would most likely be at the engine ground. I can see the frame ground behind the fake oil tank cover but what about the engine ground? Is this only accessible via the fake oil tank cover too?
Thank you!
Joe
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Both grounds are inside that area. The engine ground—including the negative battery cable—is on top of the transmission case. The chassis ground is just above it, with the harness grounds and a jumper ground between them.
Not only do I add a larger ground wire between the two points but I also clean them while I have them apart. On the most recent bike there was a bunch of aluminum corrosion under the screw on the top of the the engine case. There was a little rust on the frame ground. A fine brass brush cleaned them both up before reassembly.
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My engine case ground like a lot of X's was coated in orange Lok tite.... Last I knew, it doesn't conduct electricity very well
I put a large ground under faux oil tank, and another from starter bolt to frame. Nice commercial made telephone grounds....
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Ok found the grounds with no problems, Before I undid them I checked the resistance to the frame in both locations. All showed perfect continuity >:( But I will of course clean them just the same. I also removed the cover from the ECU to check the connectors. Everything looked good.
I should note at this point the bike wont start at all - which is a good thing because I am no longer looking for an intermittent fault.
Anyway I tried starting the bike and again nothing, Gas started drizzling out the throttle body and not even a pop.
I pulled the plugs and the spark was fantastic. Wow??? Is it possible the timing is whacked? I'm not sure that's possible because it uses the crank position sensor to tell it when to fire (I think). This one is getting interesting ;D
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Have you got a compression gauge? May as well test them if you have the plugs out.
You’re getting spark and the injectors are firing? You’re right: this IS an odd one. Gasoline burns. So does starting fluid. If the plugs are firing and you’re not even getting a pop, the only thing that comes to mind is lack of compression.
I can’t think of any reasonable way the engine would skip cam time. Even then it would only be one cylinder.
Maybe the injectors aren’t sealing. Could you simply be getting too much fuel and wet fouling the plugs?
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I don't have the right fitting for my compression tester but the finger over the hole says I have plenty. The plugs were quite wet. Hmm. Maybe time to check the injectors?
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Can you try opening the throttle all the way and cranking it? If the plugs are wet at least a corresponding amount of air might start it.
That could suggest a failing throttle position sensor (dumping fuel as if the throttle is opened more than it is).
I hate to send you on a wild goose chase but one of my bikes did have a dead crank angle sensor. I don’t know if one can gradually start dropping its connection and sending bad pulses to the ecu.
I had a road speed sensor that did that: intermittent low readings, then off altogether. They operate on the same principle and it wouldn’t run with that kind of signal.
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One other thought for the night: do you have a standard OBD2 reader for a car? I just tried mine and I was able to read all the sensor values the ECU thinks it’s getting, including throttle position and rpm from the crank sensor (even during cranking).
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Hi Greg,
My buddy has the fancy code reader and I will get that today. We can compare values to see if something stands out.
Joe
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The thing the OBD2 reader will tell you is if the throttle position sensor is responding smoothly and the values somewhat match where the grip actually is, does the air intake temp look like a real temperature, ditto for the “coolant temp” (cylinder head temp sensor) etc.
While all of us have our opinions from past experiences, just one of those things being terribly off could cause problems for the bike.
Also: nothing “fancy” about having an OBD2 reader these days. You can buy a WiFi OBD2 plug on eBay for about $20. Download any of a number of apps to your phone and you can read all of that stuff, reset codes, etc.
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And it's all very handy..!!
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Hi Gang,
I do have a code reader but its just a simple one - it only reads codes but doesn't give any input values. I agree they are a must-have. Anyway I borrowed my buddy's that does display all kinds of info and hooked it up. It will not display anything while the engine is cranking in fact it turns off when cranking. However, even at rest it does display some data.
ECT 9 degrees Celsius
SHRTFT1 0%
Spark Advance 0%
IAT 10 degrees Celsius
Throttle position 11.4% at rest and 65.1% at full throttle position
well, that's all I get from the data. This morning it did fire for half second and then die.
The positive battery terminal was not tight, I have taken the ground bolt/nut off and everything looks clean. One of the loop terminals on the back of the battery box had a crack in the loop so I should replace that and I will stop by NAPA today to see bout a ground strap.
Joe
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It’s times like this when I have to remind myself what an engine needs to run:
- Fuel
- Oxygen
- Spark at the right time
The one thing that old rule doesn’t state but I guess is included under oxygen is, compression.
You say you have good compression. Without a gauge we’ll have to take that on faith. While I agree with your thumb test, I’ve had some lawn equipment recently that would not run but felt like it had compression. Varnish on the valve stem made closing very gummy. It was holding the valve slightly open. Drove me nuts until I found it only had about 40 psi of compression.
I hate to start recommending more expensive parts but I’d be taking a hard look at the crank sensor at this point. Your can pretty much eliminate the fuel system by:
- Spraying a few shots of starting fluid in the throttle body (known fuel)
- Wide open throttle (plenty of oxygen)
- And cranking it.
If it doesn’t start, the only electrical things remaining are damaged wiring, damaged ECU (not likely) or the crank angle sensor is bad and giving false information to the ecu.
I’ve had one bad crank angle sensor (when I bought the bike) and one intermittently bad road speed sensor which is similar. Hmm—now that I think about it, they were both on the same bike. Anecdotally that tells me they can be suspect. Unless you have access to an oscilloscope, I can’t think of a good way to test it without replacement.
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Yes I have convinced myself that the fuel supply is fine so it boils down to the ECU or the injectors themselves. I have to assume the ECU is OK (or ship it out to be tested) or look at the injectors.
Almost out of desperation I sprayed starting fluid around the outside of the injectors. It ran and kept running until the starting fluid vapor was consumed. Okay that's a big deal, so it must be sucking in air around the injectors. I will take them off next and see what the O rings look like.
I suppose it could be the intake manifold though..
Joe
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It was easy enough to take the intake and injectors out. None of the O rings look horribly bad but I will order a set from Atlantic and see how it goes.
Joe
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Joe,
If you sprayed starting fluid around the outside of the injectors and the bike started, you must have a terrible vacuum leak there somewhere.
The o rings are a good start. I've never needed to have any of my injectors cleaned but, that might also not be a bad idea. Do you know the history of the bike before you got it? How long it was sitting, etc? I don't remember but if your factory filter had died, it's possible something got picked up and shoved downstream into the injectors. That would either plug them or keep them from closing. I guess if they weren't closing, you could end up with the fuel dripping from the manifolds as you described earlier.
There are conflicting symptoms here that suggest there may be more than one problem going on. Rest assured that correcting these things isn't a waste of time. Most of this stuff would have eventually happened simply due to the age of the bikes.
Greg
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I totally agree Greg. Lots of mixed symptoms. Possibly the intake leak was causing the injectors to overcompensate for a lean condition which lead to flooding (?). I'm not sure I really believe that but it does seem that something was leaking.
The intake seals look OK to me but not perfect - heck they might have shrunk some with age or temperature (the last ride was on the cool side). The front injector was really hard to pull out of the manifold like the O-ring was fused to the manifold but it did come out intact.
I cleaned the injectors with carb cleaner (pressurized) and put some power to them. I was about 3 feet away from a piece of big blotter paper and I circled the spray patterns. Both injectors performed the same so I think I'm good there.
I think now I just have to wait for the seals to arrive. I will take the opportunity to have the muffler hanger welded up as it has a crack in it. It's rainy-cold here so it's a good time to wrench :)
joe
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I haven’t worked on nearly as many of these as some in this community but I’d also recommend buttering up the manifold seals with a light grease or even silicone grease if you have any. It helps them to find their happy spot during installation and clamp-up. If they’re free to squish around during the heat cycling of the engine, just that much better.
On the muffler hanger: broke out around the mounting tabs?
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The injector holes are very porous.... I've fought a few trying to get them out. It appears the "0"ring seats into the pores...
These cast parts make for some tougher situations at times of removal.
The exhaust bracket..... I can't prove it, but to me it happens when any one of the exhaust components didn't get proper tightening.... Just loose enough to bear extra weight thru wobble onto that weak webbing of the bracket. Because of it I double check my exhaust bolts/clamps on the exhaust ...
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Bruce,
Yes, there is truth in what you said. Generally speaking: when designing holes like that, the rule of thumb is something around 2D edge distance (or greater).
That means if the screws are 5/16 (0.312) then the minimum distance from center to the outside of the material should be twice that--5/8 (0.625). At least that's what gets used on aircraft. Let that be a lesson to anybody designing a beefier plate to weld onto their bracket.
If you check most of the busted-out ears on the few things that fail like that on our bikes, they aren't that generous (throttle body bracket, shifter bracket, muffler bracket). You can get away with less edge distance on thicker parts but, those were neither thick, nor wide. There was simply not enough meat for the job. Like you said: if they come loose, things start hammering around and it's just a matter of time before they give up.
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Actually my crack was not bad, probably in the early stages. Its the rear mounting bolt sleeve - its about 1/3 cracked away from the surrounding plate. Nothing is loose or wobbly, I just noticed it when I got down on the ground to check things out.
I got the seals ordered from Atlantic today. They don't have the one that goes between the intake and the butterfly piece. I think mine is ok but Marty said they don't have anymore. I will definitely butter up the O rings prior to installation and I'm guessing I make the final tightening of the intake clamps after everything is aligned.
Joe
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Yeah that gasket has been gone for a number of years now. So.... Just silicon...
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It looks like my seals won't get here till Friday - BTW was the throttle position I noted ok, 16% fully closed ?
Thanks!
Joe
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oops, I mean 11% on the TPS
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I would like to also know what the procedure is for finding the zero position on the throttle position sensor. My first bike, with the factory tune and in my possession forever, registered 10 or 11% at closed throttle so I would assume you're also in the ballpark.
Somewhere in the ECU it does subtract that number off and knows what "closed throttle" looks like. If you ever had to replace the throttle body or sensor, I don't know if you just have to mechanically adjust the sensor to get to the same number or if there is some other method. It'll never be a problem for most of us if we don't have to replace those parts.
Come to think of it: I don't know how our cars do that either. I don't know of any TPS reset method to find zero. They just seem to know.
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Tps and aic.... Both are a rare bird and are pretty much bullet proof so far
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It was a fruitful day. The new seals arrived from Atlantic (including that rubber gasket they said was long gone) and I got to work.
Now there was a lot of work to be done because the exhaust was removed to get to the ground wires and such plus resealing the injectors and getting the intake back on. Plus the exhaust hanger crack had been welded and I got a new air filter spacer that had been lost.
After a few hours I got everything buttoned up. This was going to be it. New seals and I was very careful with the reassembly. Then when I finally went to fire it up...crap! Still wont fire up but I can get it to run on the front cylinder if I keep enough throttle on. Rear cylinder wont fire. I did find the wires to the spark plug coil were exposed, well at least one of them. I taped them up but that wasn't it.
I went to Autozone to get a compression tester to answer the question about compression but frankly I had pretty much decided the rear head must be cracked. I bought a tester and the compression measured 135 psi, I didn't think that was too bad.
Then I'm checking the injector to the rear cylinder. Maybe the connector is loose. Nope. I marked the connector with paint marker when I took things apart. R2 for the second injector used for the rear cylinder. Then I pull out the wiring diagram and realize I am either an idiot or have early onset. I had connected the purge valve connector (used on CA models only) to the second injector. Okay got that squared and...she fired right up.
It's raining right now so I can't take the bike for a spin. But it fires right up and stays running just like it is supposed to. This is a really good sign.
In conclusion what was it (assuming it stays fixed)? An intake leak. Possibly at the one of the heads or between the butterfly assembly and the intake.
When the rain lets up I will take it for a test drive but I'm pretty optimistic at this point.
Joe
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Awesome sounds great ......
Yeah surprisingly some of those duetz connectors will interchange... Done that myself a couple of times.
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Well??!! Is it running o.k.?
Jumper
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Did you sell it this time? I think you just got through the woods and it was ready for some miles. I guess whatever your riding / ownership style is, this didn't fit into it?
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Hello Everyone.
Yes I took one last stab at selling the bike because the guy still had the 86 HD that I wanted. The bike did sell but I realized the buyer did not have the money the same time I got a text from the HD guy saying it was sold. I was really OK with that because I think I am through the woods on the Excelsior and I really wanted to enjoy it. So, I'm back.
The bike still starts right up and settles into an low idle (750 RPM approx.) once the engine gets warm. It's too cold to take it for a real ride but trips around the block suggest it's running exactly as it should.
I have a hunch my LH front motor mount is bad because it seems to have sunk down to the lower mounting bolt. I posted the question on the facebook site because its easy to add pictures. I will give a final update when I take the bike out on a ride long enough to get things hot to verify the flat spot is gone for good.
Joe
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From your picture on Facebook not real sure if it's bad... But I posted some things to look at.
Another would be any knocking/ticking relavent to a sunken engine on the frame or cross frame.
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Thanks Bruce,
Someone suggested I remove the chrome caps and see if the bolt was centered in the hole. I removed the caps, there was some rubber dust inside and the bolts were definitely not in the center. The left one was at the bottom and the right one was only a little higher. Looks like motor mount time :-[
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You removed the caps "just because" or was it vibrating unusually badly? If the mounts are good, the bike will have what could best be described as soft vibration. If there's any hard hammering or shaking that you feel, the front mounts are probably bad.
They're just holding the engine with the rubber in shear. The mounting holes are offset to the top of the mount (not concentric) so that when they're loaded with the weight of the engine, the screws more or less end up in the center.
If the rubber fails, the screws are designed to let the engine drop down onto the spacer collars but, still keep everything where it belongs. It'll vibrate like hell but, nothing will fall off.
So if you see a gap between the bottom of the spacer collar (inboard of the socket head cap screws) and the surrounding metal housing, they're still hanging on. They might still be getting old though, and sagging more than they should.
As others have already suggested: they're a wear item. They go bad. Install them carefully (don't introduce any twist into them as you tighten) and they should last a long time.
And before some Harley dweeb tells you their bikes are different, Harley adopted very similar mounts, with all the same pros and cons, quite a few years ago:
(https://www.glide-pro.com/store/glide-pro/2009-2013FLH.jpg)
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(https://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a437/mendonjo/image_zps9lmp3mme.jpeg)
I did also hear a faint clunk occasionally as I rode the bike around the block. You can see rubber dust around the socket head cap screw
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I'm guessing from the discussions about longer chrome caps they must be functional. Do they preload the rubber bushings in compression?
Joe
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No, there is no preload on these mounts. They’re purely in shear. There is no clamping at all. The deeper nuts were designed because of tolerance stackup between parts. On many bikes, tightening the nut doesn’t actually secure the mount to the frame because the male threads on the mount bottom out inside the nut before ever clamping the frame ear. The deeper nuts allow that extra thread of rotation to properly tighten them.
Do you need them? You won’t know until the nut stops turning and you find out if they’re still loose or not. So far, I think only one of my bikes needed the deeper nuts. You could also carefully grind down the length of the protruding threads on the mounts if they’re too long. Doesn’t take much.
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Joe....
that was me in facebook with suggestions...
Correct me Greg as needed, but I was under the understanding the design of the deeper caps/washer trick was to spread the vibration frequency at the motormounts away as it were... to cut back vibration direct to the motormounts.
You make it too simple, I didn't even think about cutting the threads back on the mounts to accomplish the same thing. Jamie wanted the cap to seat against the back and actually pull on the mount. He found out later that if you don't clean out the deeper threads though (painted), you can't get there by simply applying wrench. You'll have to strip/sand/file off that paint to expose clean threads. I got the early thick aluminum washers from superXparts.... seem to work well. Jamie came up with this idea, as they were running out of mounts on the shelf then. And as we all know now, Dan has had a batch of new ones made thru the same original vender.
Looking at the chrome cap, a sign of possible trouble, is rust staining bottom of cap and hole. Its possible that it not bad, but if there is rust, you may want to look.
Joe.... I don't know your X or you, but I'm hoping that someone has loosened the belt. With the original OEM standard for tightening belt, it was MUCH too tight, and besides taking out rear wheel bearings/hub, was also pulling on the motormounts (front specific).
If anyone decides to replace the back mounts, please note to self there is a notch in that cup for a reason. On the back side (where you cannot easily see it) on the frame is a bump that notch fits over. You don't get that mount correct, you'll have an odd new noise when riding, and possible new vibration.
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Bruce, I can’t comment on any voodoo effects of damping frequencies into the mounts. Definitely out of the realm of what I know about these mounts. Could you be thinking of when they were also trying different durometer mounts (trying to find a smoother ride)?
My understanding was that they simply weren’t tightening down. If somebody had already lost their caps, the deeper ones were an obvious answer.
When I was putting 1525 back together after her 15 year nap, I noticed they didn’t snug up. In that case I measured everything, added one thread of rotation to all the clearances and made aluminum washers that thickness. They weren’t very thick. I coated the threads in blue locktite and cinched them down.
The Jennie got new mounts but they tightened up fine. That was the same year. I haven’t had issues with the other three yet so I haven’t thought about it.
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My belt is definitely not tight in fact I wonder if it isn't too loose. It doesn't squeak going down the road so I figured it was ok. I will receck it of course once I get the new mounts in.
Joe
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All interesting Greg..
I can't prove any of that one way or the other... Just was told to me or I interpreted.
Retired telephone linesmen don't have much to do with that type of engineering.
With close to 40k miles now on 525, I was on my third set of fronts. And none on the shelves I was all about getting more life outta them.
I honestly can head nor hair outta harmonics/frequencies/vibrations..
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Replace the mounts... they are gone as per pics ...don't cheapen things out... you will have a better ride with new mounts
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Yep. I'm callin Marty tomorrow.
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Okay mounts are on order but I thought I would post something on the 1601 engine fault code since I figured out what was causing it and it had nothing to do with my stalling and flat spot issue.
In the past the ignition switch had been converted to a universal 3 position switch and the bezel was machined to make everything look right - and it does look good. The first position is off, the second will allow the engine to run but without lights or instrumentation, and the third position is lights on and everything working. If I start the bike in position number 3 and then switch to position number 2 (to save on battery draw for example), then the computer throws fault code 1601 Check engine lamp Open circuit/short to ground.
So the moral of the story is just to always run with the lights on; I need the instrumentation anyway.
Joe
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Haha! The switch was wired wrong. It’s supposed to be for your parking lights, not for running without lights.
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Wired wrong? Shesh it only go two wires that connect to the backside. Pretty easy swap ;D
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Well, to be accurate there are three: hot from the battery, accessory and ignition. Assuming hot is where it belongs, yes the other two are the ones that need swapping.
Just for anyone in the future who stumbles across this:
B terminal is common / hot from the fuse block and should be Orange / Blue from connector pin A
G terminal is parking / accessory and should be Red / white from connector pin B
ST terminal is ignition / run and should be Red / Gray from connector pin C
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The mounts arrived today. Any tricks on installing them or just take apart what look like needs takenapartin?
Joe
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You sound pretty self accomplished ...
Nothing to be afraid of, and self explanatory.
If you don't have a frame to engine ground... Maybe think about one now...
I've got on on the right motor mount to starter bolt.
Have at it, and good luck...
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The last time I did the isolators, I remember one side had a little steel roll pin to keep the mount clocked properly during tightening. That’s the easy side. For whatever reason, there was no such pin on the opposite mount and it took some holding of the steel plate (on the rubber mount) with channel locks to get the chrome nut tight without twisting the rubber. You obviously want the rubber to be relaxed at rest.
Oh, and blue loctite on the chrome caps. It’ll make them hard to remove the next time but you won’t lose one on the road. I did the Jenny with red loctite and had to wire brush it out of the threads before I could even reassemble.
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I was actually replacing the mounts when you were replying Greg, the only stray off course was the use of red locktite instead of blue ;D
Replacing the mounts was pretty easy. I Just had to jack the engine up a bit to get things back together. I started with the RH mount and though it had deformed somewhat but really didn't look bad. The ringer was the LH one, it was in two pieces as the outboard metal disk had completely separated from the rubber.
I buttoned things up and fired it up (of course it started right away and didn't stall :)) It was clear the engine was shaking a lot less, it could really be seen in the relative steadiness of the mufflers. Cant wait to take it for a spin.
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Okay I took it for a drive to the gas station and back. I feel more vibration at stoplights, probably because with all the mounts fixed it's transmitting more than before - no big deal just an observation.
Otherwise - wow does this bike run! I never rode it running this well, what a great engine! 65 mph is smooth as glass and the engine seems happy. No stalling.
Joe
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Yeah Joe, you’ve been through most of the trouble spots. She should be a good running machine now.
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I think our "sweet" spots are all pretty close. Mine is around a true 68 mph, or close to 2900rpms.... I could ride for ever in the sweet spot
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It’s funny that you mention that, Bruce. The guy I bought my Jennie from complained that he rode with all Harley guys and that his sweet spot was about 70 and didn’t agree with their sweet spots which were about 10 MPH slower. He said he was always creeping up on them on the road.
The Super X is also the only bike I have that is geared so high that I have to remind myself that there are four other gears and it’s okay to use them. Most bikes are good in top gear on the open road but I often find myself lugging the engine (below 2k rpm) and needing to downshift to bring the revs back for a clean pass or to climb a grade without lugging it.
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Yeah... Xs don't like to.lug....
Back in the early days Xman said never run our bikes under 2300.....
Which I adapted myself to do....
His theory was that X's will hammer mains at low lugging speeds.
I don't know if it's true or not but I've a habit of never lugging under 2300
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This thread is a little old and I have done a lot of fixes since I originally posted - I thought everything was fixed and it seemed to be for a little while but then the same old thing came back. Bike stalls after starting up and a flat spot after idle.
What changed this time around is things got worse (easier to find the root cause :-)) The bike would stall after starting as usual but it was really hard or impossible to keep it running - the front cylinder wasn't firing.
Its fuel related because with starting fluid it will start and stay running like it should. I took the injector off and it seems to be operating normally.
I should point out that during all this troubleshooting I developed a problem blowing the ignition fuse. It took about 20 fuses but I finally located a wire that passes through the frame near the back of the tank that had a nick in the insulation. If I hadn't seen the spark I probably never would have found it.
Anyway back to the injector. There are two wires to each injector, power (12V) and a signal wire. So I checked both injectors, each power wire had ~12v. I checked the signal wire while cranking the engine over. The rear cylinder was giving readings between 10 to 12 volts. The front cylinder was giving reading around 4.5 to 5.5 volts. I did not make note of the polarity.
So, I'm thinking the problem with the front cylinder is the signal from the ECM. So here is the question, does the ECM sound plausible or is there something else I'm not considering?
Thank you,
Joe
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Joe...
Crazy to me, but it appears to be ECU related. Without looking at schematic, that signal wire hoes straight to ECU correct?
I'm second guessing myself now.... Could be coil. Try swapping coils first...
Bruce
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Yep - right back to the ECU so I suppose the ECU or the wire itself going to the ECU.
Spark is fine, the bike starts and idles fine on both cylinders with some starting fluid
Joe
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Underneath the tank on the throttle body is a Schrader valve (air valve like on a tire). What's the pressure reading.... Gotta be 50+pounds
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Pressure is right on. Plus both injectors see the same pressure and the rear one works fine
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OK Joe....
It is possible it could be ECU issues... I've heard of prongs tarnishing and even rusting off...
Bit I still want to look at everything simpler/cheaper first.
Get me back up to speed...
Have the injectors been replaced or rebuilt?
How long has it sat. Even with any previous owners.. Any extended periods? How's the tank liner?
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Here is the update: I got a new ECM from Atlantic but it made no difference. The signal wire to injectors is 4.5 volts at rest still so I guess that is what it should be.
I'm looking at the injectors now. Frankly I don't know what's left. Fuel pump pressure and flow check good. Signal to the injectors is good. Runs fine when I squirt starting fluid on the air filter element.
So this morning I sent the injectors off to Atlantic for an exchange. They sell cleaned and rebalanced injectors for $65 each (with exchange).
Joe
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Joe pretty sure you made the correct move...
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Fuel Pump ????
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I got a set of cleaned injectors back from Atlantic (may have been the ones I sent them but it doesn't matter). Wow what a difference! The bike starts right up and does not stall, I have ridden around the block a few times and it seems perfect. It's a different machine :-)
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Nice..
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I have ridden the bike now a few times to work and I still can't believe how nice a machine it is. Those injectors (or at least one) must have been pretty dirty. I even have good midrange now :)