Bike stalls after starting up and flat spot off idle

[mendonjo]

I replaced the O rings in the fuel pump (2 in the regulator and the two that were stacked that go between the regulator housing in the pump).  In fact I just finished the job a few hours ago, the problem was I didn't have a new pump to tank seal and I knew my old one was shot.  I ordered one through an industrial supplier - yes I know Atlantic probably has them but I didn't want to bother Marty again, she has been so helpful.

Anyway the X-ring showed up today so I could put it all together.  Well I got it back together but it wanted to do the same thing - start then die but the battery was so low I couldn't keep trying to start it.  I was pretty frustrated.  I didn't know if I fixed it or not.

I  then went to Autozone and borrowed their loaner kit for testing fuel pumps.  A simple gage and a zillion different fittings.  I found a combo that would work.  Now at this point I was kinda thinking maybe the problem was the system needed to be bled.  I had the battery on a charger.

I hooked up the gage and turned the key and was getting about 15 PSI.  I turned it off and on again and got in the 20 range.  Then I discovered that If I was fast and hard with the key I would be around 40 psi.  40 psi - I hit the starter and it purred to life without dying.

So at this point I could easily believe it was the O rings that were the problem because they were cracked and formed not like an O ring anymore.  My guess is the ethanol gas got to them.  Or age.

Also I will keep my eye on the switch.  Maybe it just needs to be used a lot or even replaced.  Tomorrow the rain is supposed to stop and temps will be close to 70 degrees so I'll try it out.

Thank you DK for all your help - and the mega post you did on ADV rider.  I have read it more than once and enjoy it more each time, such an inspiration!

Joe

[Donkey Hotey]

But that’s your bike listed on eBay, no? Getting rid of it to buy back your old Harley? Personally, I’d keep both but then, I have issues.   

If that IS your bike on eBay, I see it has slash cuts. Man, those things are obnoxiously loud. That could partially kill some of the experience.

Marty and Jamie have brand new, stock mufflers available if the noise is an issue. Or someone may be interested in trading.

Couple of other things I’ll mention since the bike I just bought came  from a guy who didn’t connect with it and sold it after only 8 months. None of these may be wrong for you or they may all be wrong:

No, the steering should not shake if you take your hands off the bars. If it does, the steering head needs attention. If the mechanic says they don’t clunk and are fine, get a new mechanic. They need a little preload on them to not shake. That’s true of almost all big motorcycles.

If the engine is vibrating badly going down the higway, the front rubber mounts are probably sheared and dead. The bike should plane out beautifully on the higway and anything else suggests they’re torn. They do that but do not come apart visibly until you remove them from the bike. I’ve even had this sneak up on me gradually as a mount goes bad. One day I’ll get on and, “hey, why does this feel like a piece of crap?”

It should also have very neutral and planted handling. If not, the tires are probably ancient, cheap or both. I’m not a fan of the old Dunlop K491 Elite tires these came with and many people replaced like with like. They are a hard compound (for long life) and had a pattern that led to cupping on the front. As a result, they had poor road feedback and lousy traction. Heck, the rear on 738 is locking up during moderate stops. It has me spooked and is getting trashed tomorrow.

I’ve had great results with Continental Legends. I’ve just bought the newest replacement Dunlops to try on 738: the American Elite. They have a newer pattern with much larger tread blocks (resistant to cupping) and they’re dual compound so they will supposedly have long life with better cornering performance.

Just tossing some things out to you there because some of the bikes I’ve bought had these issues as soon as I got them home. I felt bad for the previous owners who may have partly based their sale decision on performance issues that shouldn’t have been there.

[mendonjo]

I snuck out into the garage at 5:30 to test bike - fired right up and did not die!  Yeah

Greg,

It is my bike on ebay and really just a wild hair idea of selling it.  The bike does not have any issues (well at least now) and if it did it wouldn't scare me, I find it a fun challenge to fix stuff.  Heck I enjoy a technical challenge as much as riding.  I really like the EH - a lot!  But my first bike...I bought it new in 1986 right out of college.  Right out, like the 4th day after I started my new job.  Well to be clear it is not THE actual bike but it is a 1986 Heritage Softail. First year of the Heritage Softail and they only came in one color.  To most its just a clapped out old HD but for me its when life started.

Anyway I would definitely keep the EH if I could.  I cant even move around in my garage anymore (47 Indian, 56 Panhead, 85 Shovelhead, and a couple of Honda XL600Rs).  Plus I'm married  .  My hunch is I will keep the EH anyway - its a bad time to sell and that really is fine with me.  I kinda hope the Softail gets sold and then I will promise myself to stop looking.

The EH represents what couldn't be done.  An individual deciding to start a motorcycle company?  It just seems impossible to me (I am an engineer).  I even read Dan's book.  When I look at the bike I cant imagine how many man hours it took to solve so many of the engineering and production issues - and those are just the ones I see.  So probably I will end up keeping the EH, and that makes me plenty happy.

joe

P.S>  Yes the exhaust was too loud but I took the advice of one of the EH members and added a drilled freeze plug to each muffler and it sounds really good to me now.

P.S.S  the bike that Tobey has for sale in the classified section is a better deal for someone looking to get into EH ownership.  Asking 4k and it has all the accessories!  There was a time when Crockers were cheap and you could buy and Indian Chief for $25 :-)

[Donkey Hotey]

But my first bike...I bought it new in 1986 right out of college.  Right out, like the 4th day after I started my new job.  Well to be clear it is not THE actual bike but it is a 1986 Heritage Softail. First year of the Heritage Softail and they only came in one color.  To most its just a clapped out old HD but for me its when life started.

Hey, I'm not going to try to talk you into or out of this Harley thing but, you managed to find an stock 1986 Heritage Softail? Or is it a clapped out, altered 1986 Softail? Man a clean, stock survivor would be impressive.

P.S>  Yes the exhaust was too loud but I took the advice of one of the EH members and added a drilled freeze plug to each muffler and it sounds really good to me now.

Yeah, I've read about that solution. In my mind, it sounds like it would be more restrictive than the standard, unaltered mufflers. I have nothing to back that up. If it works for you...

P.S.S  the bike that Tobey has for sale in the classified section is a better deal for someone looking to get into EH ownership.  Asking 4k and it has all the accessories!  There was a time when Crockers were cheap and you could buy and Indian Chief for $25 :-)

Yeah, uhhh, there's no such motorcycle for sale. 

That's the one with the violent headshake and the bad tires. She's getting new Dunlops in a few hours.

[mendonjo]

Hello Everyone,

An update on the X.  It ran wonderfully after replacing the O rings in the fuel pump but not for long.  A buddy of mine rode it this weekend for a short jaunt and the original problems resurfaced - dying on deceleration and breaking up at high speeds.  By the time the ride was over it reverted back to only starting for half a second then dying.

I have been messaging Greg back and forth for advice.  He suspects poor grounding and I will tear into that soon.  In the meantime I pulled the fuel pump out again (I'm getting pretty good at it) and rechecked the O-rings.  Things looked fine and I took Atlantic's advice on putting the O rings into the housing and then pressing regulator in.  I will likely test that tonight.

Its really a fun bike and I look forward to having it fully operational, after riding it my old Harley felt like a toy

[Donkey Hotey]

Joe, again, not sure if my messsge from yesterday morning got to you or not. If you’re getting the backfire, lurching a few times and setting the check engine light, I’d be looking at the grounds. Fuel pressure isn’t detectable by the computer so it wouldn’t set the light.

Of course there’s no guarantee that your bike isn’t having both problems at once (fuel pressure and bad grounds).

[Berlin Bob]

sounds like a loose positive cable on battery ?   these bikes vibrate alot and this is a common thing ?

[mendonjo]

Hi Gang,

Tonight I tried the fuel pump.  No more luck but I'm really doubting the fuel pump as a problem.  I couldn't even keep the bike running with starting fluid.  Next I go behind the fake oil tank and start cleaning grounds and of course I will check the battery connections too.  Ill keep you posted.

Joe

BTW should the wire connections for speedo, fuel gage, and fuel pump be in the area under the gage cluster (pod) or just somewhere under the tank?

[Berlin Bob]

Under the gauge cluster

[mendonjo]

Okay no chance last night to look at the bike (work emergency).  In the meantime I have studied the wiring diagram and have a hunch my weak ground would most likely be at the engine ground.  I can see the frame ground behind the fake oil tank cover but what about the engine ground?  Is this only accessible via the fake oil tank cover too?

Thank you!

Joe

[Donkey Hotey]

Both grounds are inside that area. The engine ground—including the negative battery cable—is on top of the transmission case. The chassis ground is just above it, with the harness grounds and a jumper ground between them.

Not only do I add a larger ground wire between the two points but I also clean them while I have them apart. On the most recent bike there was a bunch of aluminum corrosion under the screw on the top of the the engine case. There was a little rust on the frame ground. A fine brass brush cleaned them both up before reassembly.

[wytfut]

My engine case ground like a lot of X's was coated in orange Lok tite....   Last I knew, it doesn't conduct electricity very well

I put a large ground under faux oil tank, and another from starter bolt to frame. Nice commercial made telephone grounds....

[mendonjo]

Ok found the grounds with no problems,  Before I undid them I checked the resistance to the frame in both locations.  All showed perfect continuity   But I will of course clean them just the same.  I also removed the cover from the ECU to check the connectors.  Everything looked good.

I should note at this point the bike wont start at all - which is a good thing because I am  no longer looking for an intermittent fault.

Anyway I tried starting the bike and again nothing, Gas started drizzling out the throttle body and not even a pop.

I pulled the plugs and the spark was fantastic.  Wow???  Is it possible the timing is whacked?  I'm not sure that's possible because it uses the crank position sensor to tell it when to fire (I think).  This one is getting interesting

[Donkey Hotey]

Have you got a compression gauge? May as well test them if you have the plugs out.

You’re getting spark and the injectors are firing? You’re right: this IS an odd one. Gasoline burns. So does starting fluid. If the plugs are firing and you’re not even getting a pop, the only thing that comes to mind is lack of compression.

I can’t think of any reasonable way the engine would skip cam time. Even then it would only be one cylinder.

Maybe the injectors aren’t sealing. Could you simply be getting too much fuel and wet fouling the plugs?

[mendonjo]

I don't have the right fitting for my compression tester but the finger over the hole says I have plenty.  The plugs were quite wet.  Hmm.  Maybe time to check the injectors?