questions about puking an old topic, and related

[wytfut]

     years ago... someone who I cannot remember his name, came up with what I thought was a brilliant idea on how to let your X hold 4+ quarts of oil without puking.
     The theory on why our Xs puke is that the gas vent hole is at the back of the primary case, and acts like a back stop for any oil tossed about, or surged as it maybe....
     the clutch basket is right there and tosses lots of oil about, and also depending at the moment how much oil is in your primary, you can actually surge oil to the back and out that vent hole. .... Some Xs are more prone that others. And some don't puke at all... I cannot verify actually why some won't and some are so sensitive to how much oil is in the case.
    The process is to take and move the entrance of the gases into the vent away from the clutch basket. This process is to take a piece of aluminum electrical conduit, and weld a flange on it, to mount to the 2 local bolt holes. and move the vent entrance up, and out into the primary case.

     Believe it or not, it works. But with 525, there is one issue, although very small and unknown why, up on full throttle from a standing start or very slow speeds..... something where you are heaving a surge to the back of the primary.... it will puke, what ever enters the vent hole even there.  Since I placed this device, it has done this type of puke maybe 4 times (I did this way back around 2005) and it took me a long time to guess why it did.
     I really think if some one were to come up with another design for this remote vent hole.... something that wouldn't let the oil enter with a direct route, the problem would be gone.
     Joe Sullivan on the left coast, on his own, plugged the OEM vent hole and then drilled out the top of his primary case and placed SS tubing and fittings. His puke problem is gone, and it looks factory, if not a compliment.  I don't remember the exact details on the look as its been a long time since I've chatted with him.
      In another conversation I had with Jim Turek from Indiana.....  I'm not arguing one way or the other, nor am I looking for an arguement, as I can't prove either way.....    He feels that the setting on your pick up tube determines how much oil is laying in the bottom of your primary. He pulled his off the floor of the primary, substantially so his clutch basket would be bathed continuously in oil, lot of oil tossed to ..... thats how I interpeted all of that....  if you remember on the oil pick up tube, the set height was something to the tune of the thickness of a quarter, or in that area...
     
      I'm not recommending anyone try any of this, but its all interesting, as we really don't know what the height of the oil in the bottom of the primary at rest, or running down the road. And from the DIY guy, its nice to know there are guys out there trying different things to make our Bikes better....   

[blackheart]

But Bruce,....  the vent is not off the primary as that would be a much more dynamic place to vent crankcase vapor from.   So the transmission is housed in an enclosure within the main case with holes to drain oil to sump below the case.  Behind this transmission enclosure is where your oil is added and vented from.  It's high above the static oil level in the lower rear case and behind transmission.   Then on the left case half there is an additional enclosure where the oil vapors / combustion gas blow by enters into a baffle set up that ultimately is vented out that fitting behind the primary on the left case.

On mine,  I run no extra tube on the primary and 4 qts on a oil change.  Still has original paper element and paper has zero oil on it, infact wire mesh is rusted.

This is a subject that's odd.  Since my case vent was still hooked to the air filter and filter was clean, I did not install the supplemental pick up tube.  Not sure it's right but it works... 

[wytfut]

Rich...
here are 2 pictures of what it looks like inside my primary case....
one shows open primary with tranny missing and duct tape coving tranny hole...
Second one show tranny in place, and clutch basket.

on the first one note on right side, a hard to see slot with a partial webbing covering it, with between 2 missing bolts. This is the vent hole on my X....
the second hole shows the piece I had placed over the vent hole, to get away from the clutch basket.

this vent, is just in on the middle primary cover piece...    I'm sorry, but I'm not following when you are talking about Left...

Are you referring to the reed valves behind fly starter gear?....
I'm trying....

[blackheart]

You know.....Bruce - your right !  I'm thinking.   When I was typing the other night all I had in my head was the threaded in fitting for the vent hose is on the left side case, not the primary case..  so it enters, hits the baffle, then has to exit the vent.  I'll take a look on the extra one I got with tranny still in it.

I'm also going to take a look at rings on this one, pistons are still in jugs but jugs off bike. (I kept them assembled in case I was going to slip back on the #307, but now I'm going to preserve for storage.

So my question in the other response is answered now, thanks Bruce...  it must exit through a hole in primary into the left case vent baffled area.....

[wytfut]

Well....
That's cool ...
But would like to remind the readers here, I'm far from in foalable...
I try hard, but can be easily swayed and/or corrected...

In the meantime I'm always learning...

[blackheart]

Ok Bruce, I think I finally understand your 3+ qts. on an oil change vs a full 4 on mine....

When i looked at my spare engine, which when it was in California was updated with transmission upgrade, oil pick up tube, scavenge pump drive coupling, etc.; I came to realize part of the pick up tube modification was to also plug the oil passage way which tied the oil sump under the transmission to the primary.  That was my point the other day when I was thinking with the cavities tied together and depending on if the oil level in the sump was high enough and the pick up tube low enough you could essentially over load the scavenging pump or have it pumping in circles....  I never realized that passage way was plugged off when you do the pick up tube.  The fellow sold the pick up tube off this engine as well as the clutch so when I went to look at it I was staring at a plug, but I also saw the passage way to allow the combustion gases / oil vapor from the primary to the engine case....  It goes into the transmission area and NOT into the area behind so It must still go in, make it's way down and turn a 180 then travel up to breather outlet fitting.

I'm still thinking the only thing the tube does is allow you to leave on sidestand longer, but with primary blocked off it certainly drops the level of oil in the primary and keeps it from possibly pushing as much oil vapor / oil droplets into the main case.

[wytfut]

Bob.... you are more than welcome to contribute anytime...   
I agree on the sidestand...    hopefully everyone that reads this knows this and/or has had their sidestand beefed up.... especially those who warm them up before riding.... I've seen 3 different ways of doing that. They all work.

There are a lot of very creative owners in X world, that rarely post here, with some great ideas.

I would very much like to see what you have come up with for PVC. From what I see, the OEM design is PVC. You have another idea... cool, I'm sure I'm not the only one, apparently it does work for you... awesome....

As for the X's being different.... I can't argue differences in build on these bikes, but I do know they can/are a little bit different from each other. Quite possibly not every single one, but between the 3 we had, there were significant nuances. For example here on this page, Richs bike takes a full 4 quarts at oil change, and it doesn't puke. For me that isn't that common. While on the other end of the scale our DWS was a huge puker. 
With our small build numbers, for me it fits prototypes ....

Bruce

[Berlin Bob]

bruce... thanks ... what  I mean About the PCV  is  air in  air  out...our bikes from the factory only sucked the gases and oil  out of the case by only one way ...rear side vent and thru the  throttle body. The pressure inside the cases is kind of high and thus  pukes out ... we took the oil filler tube,made a hole out the side of it, cut a 1"  x 1/2 "copper tee in half (long ways) and soldered a barbed brass fitting to it ,upright, sealed and clamped it, ran the 3/8 " hose up and over the rear jug and in beteen both cylinders to the back plate of the air box  ,put the electronics cover back on ... you don't see anything it's all hidden... you see...the gases/pressure  are sucked in  thru the  breather filter on the rear of the engine down on the rear peg where everyone puts it, then exits or sucked  thru filler tube and into the the air box .. no pressure to force or suck oil out anymore... I'll try to post a pic ...I'll try and find a pic of it mounted on the bike... i had a bike that puked alot to, and this system fixed it   thanks for listening

[wytfut]

Nice work Bob... nice and simple...
I've noted to myself thru the years that there have been at least a couple of other owners attempting to do something at the filler... much like yours, or at least in principle.. Roger Hodges name comes to mind...
I don't know how successful they ended up.

I get the blinders on at times.... and ended up with my remote hole, over engineering.... it works though...

May do something just like that with my Nephews blue yet this winter...  hell, I could even still do that to  525...

Bruce

[Berlin Bob]

Bruce   send me your  address and I'll pop one in the mail to ya  no charge... test it on your  puker
 and let me know......   rcsandruck@msn.com   ...443-783-0920     i am still looking for the installed pic

Bob

[blackheart]

Ok...  so I'll say a few more words.  I think the bent kick stand thing explains some of the variance in oil level as well as length of hose to case, as I've heard they vary, but should not.

Personally I  can guarantee you if the passage between the oil sump and primary is not plugged and the oil level is checked on side stand it will hold more oil than if otherwise "updated" with plugged hole and pick up tube.  Oil runs downhill and that primary will lower the level so mine holds more than Bruce. Fairly simple all else being equal.

I'd have to agree all castings and machining is the same.

I can say leaving mine run on side stand for some time before pulling in shop this last time resulted in alot of oil in main crank case area when jugs were pulled, so the ONLY way to get it in equilibrium is the raindance b.s.