Author Topic: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions  (Read 5571 times)

Offline blackheart

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Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« on: October 24, 2017, 08:43:07 PM »
So, my #307 was purchased 5 yrs ago and until I completed the basic fixes such as reflash, tranny, extra oil cooling, etc., I had not ridden this machine much.  When i bought it she had around 6k on the clock, now 14k, 6 of which were put on since this June.

Last time i changed oil in July which was the first time i had run many miles, I noted when draining the oil the presence of fine metallic debris based upon a sheen in the used oil.  Tonight I noticed the same thing.  I believe there are issues lurking ahead on this machine as things sound looser and this oil is not looking positive.   I have yet to cut open the last two oil filters for a look but i am interested.   I am running the 10 micron Wix XP filter so it should or pretty much is assured superior to OEM filter.

Any other users have any comments?  I ran 4000 miles on this last change

Rich
S/N 0307, 14th X assembled factory demonstrator

Offline Donkey Hotey

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 11:48:11 PM »
What kind and weight of oil are you using? Have you run a magnet through the oil to see if it's iron or something non-ferrous? I'm not waiting to jump all over you about a choice of oil or anything. Just curious as a data point.

I can tell you that I bought my 1986 Gold Wing brand new and put 190k on it. I was very sensitive to every noise in that engine. With water cooling and 4K oil changes, I could plainly hear how much quieter the engine was after a change. That's not good because it suggests the oil was breaking down badly.

I switched to Mobil 1 20w50 car oil at about 16-20k. After that, there was no change between the sounds it made before and after an oil change. It made a believer out of me.

With the air/oil cooling of these Super Xs, I'd be running the heavy (15w50?) Mobil 1 car oil at a minimum and try to use the V-twin stuff if the price doesn't scare you.

I'm curious what the magnet test will reveal.
Greg

1525 since 2000 (Molly) 1989 since 2012 (Jennie) 0333 since 2015 (Beulah) 1663 since 2017 (Deadwood)
0738 since 2018 (Babe) 1940 since 2019 (Sinclair) 1555 since 2022 (Genesis)0315 since 2022 (Freedom)

Offline blackheart

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2017, 07:26:59 PM »
Ill try the magnet test.  When i bought the bike it had fairly or nearly new oil in it with an EH oil filter.  Had 6k on it.  When i did the tranny i found aluminum shavings in sump,  shot em with an xrf and they were aluminum which spells scuffed piston.  Mine was a factory demonstrator.  Ive been running Valvoline MC 20W-50 synthetic.  Run the Wix XP filter.

I rebushed tranny with 932 bronze, set clearance at 0.001"-0.0015" maybe a little more on the bigger ones.  Pocketed the bushing ID to hold oil similar to factory bushing.

It had a factory accessory cooler and i added in series a 10 row jagg vertical mount on frame tube.  I don't ride much over 99 degrees F nor in heavy traffic (use my other bikes for this). 

I may try to do an oil analysis with Spectrometry and particle count. 
S/N 0307, 14th X assembled factory demonstrator

Offline Donkey Hotey

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 04:46:02 PM »
Ahh, this is that same bike? Yeah, I don't know what to say there. Who knows what kind of extended idling and overheating it might have experienced. The EH engine isn't different than any number of other engines out there. The bearings are normal sizes, the transmission is shared with other bikes, the clutch bits are all roughly the correct scale for what it is.

If you're already doing x-ray analysis, you should be the one giving US answers!  ;D

Looking forward to reading what you find.
Greg

1525 since 2000 (Molly) 1989 since 2012 (Jennie) 0333 since 2015 (Beulah) 1663 since 2017 (Deadwood)
0738 since 2018 (Babe) 1940 since 2019 (Sinclair) 1555 since 2022 (Genesis)0315 since 2022 (Freedom)

Offline blackheart

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 07:40:29 PM »
LOL, I suppose....  The XRF for a material identification just happens to be available.   Id have to send oil off for analysis other than viscosity.

The big question, does anyone see any superfine debris in their oil after a 3000 mile run?  Im used to running HD'S which dont have a common sump.  Now my old shovel will have a little, but the twin cam nothing. My Victory TC , I cant recall but i think i see similar but not as concentrated, ive been running rhe vic 5k between changes with XP filter, but it holds six qts which is a lot of oil for 2 cyl.
S/N 0307, 14th X assembled factory demonstrator

Offline Donkey Hotey

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2017, 08:29:02 PM »
I'm not crawling around under the bike to check position but, could you maybe get a borescope up through the drain plug and be able to inspect the lower cylinder walls? I'd be curious if there is any aluminum fused to the wall and causing skirt wear.

The only other potential area I can think of for wear like that would be the torsional damper. That's a lot of spring-loaded sliding motion. That might produce some very fine aluminum in the oil, without pointing to an eventual failure.
Greg

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0738 since 2018 (Babe) 1940 since 2019 (Sinclair) 1555 since 2022 (Genesis)0315 since 2022 (Freedom)

Offline wytfut

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2017, 07:33:07 AM »
Greg and Rich,
first up.... I cannot make any claims to be a metalurgis, or engineer....    so my comments may seem a little simple....
Last winter we were replacing rear valve cover gasket on old blu (nephew Devins X)....
When we spotted all sorts of flakey material all over the top of the head. Yeah, it scared the dickens out of us.....
We also had to replace the Stator as it had smoked.
And again tons of flakes.
Bike was/is runnning great...   no oil consumption...just the typical X keeping an eye on stuff....
When we replaced the Stator we got down to the Ramp Drives (torque compensators), where we noticed that where they rub, the hardening was coming off. Concerns arose....

Called Jamie....   his comments were, "we are seeing more and more of these losing their hardening, and I have not idea why at this point." He also said that there are NO MORE Ramp Drives out there that he knows about.
The flakes..... we found out if you touch/rub them between your fingers, break down to a powder like substance. 
This for me made for a small concern but nothing huge. Devin had no peace of mine. This all happened about the time I inherited my youngest sons DWS, that had been sitting in another building for a very long time.

Made the decision to part it out so we could get a few cool parts off of it, including the ramp drives for Devins Blu.
The DWSs Ramp Drives were also starting to break down but with no real scoring, and not near as bad as Blu s.

I don't know what all this means, but it brings questions to my mind. I'm going to guess the hardening is Nonferrous?.... .....    Could this be the source for your flakes Rich?    And should this be a real concern?   

Currently we took the old Ramps to a new machine shop in town to see if they could make these..... as a replacement source. I suspect they can, but I'm pretty sure they are going to very expensive if they can.....

Sorry guys for a later reply than normal from me..... have had a lot of things going on here on the home front when I read this, this morning....

Bruce
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Offline wytfut

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2017, 07:37:34 AM »
Also...
As you may have noticed on the other sites, I did sell the DWS special but not in parts, but complete minus the Drives .....   To a very nice couple (Mike and Sandy Seastrom) out of Texas. And they did know those parts were missing.

In fact they had a lead on a set of them in a local junk yard before they made the purchase.
My thoughts were somewhere across the nation there has to be around 100 X's sitting in junk yards, that were either totaled, burned, locked up....but those ramps had to be in good shape.....

Bruce
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Offline Donkey Hotey

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2017, 10:52:57 PM »
Well, you just confirmed what would have been my guess. I can't say definitively that this is Rich's problem but, it would make sense.

I'm going on memory here but, if I remember correctly, that part was cast aluminum, not iron or steel. If that's the case, they really can't do much to harden the wear face.

Knowing that Harleys have the same type of thing on their engines, I did some research this afternoon. The proper name for the assembly is the Compensator. If you google it, you'll find out that this is a weak spot on Harleys and quite the sore spot on the forums. Apparently S&S and maybe some other companies, make aftermarket solutions for their engines.

I post that as a perspective that this is not uniquely an EH problem. It seems that Victorys have them as well, though I didn't read the same kind of problems.

Another non-related thing I stumbled into (again) was the Twin Cam timing chain tensioner problem: basically tear into your Harley and replace the slipper shoe every 15K  or have it destroy the engine.

I share this here for perspective: so many people take cheap shots at Excelsior Henderson engines, saying that they had unresolved problems, blah, blah. The truth is, they had a few problems and they were not as bad as some of the brands that live to this day--often without OEM solutions.

Back to the problem of the wearing compensators. If we are in need of replacement compensators, they can be made. The problem will be somebody needing to spend the money to have the broach made to cut the internal splines. There was also a running change made between VIN 510 and 511.

Looking at the parts manual, page 72, we're talking about part 4 and 15. Just guessing from what I see in the illustration and part numbers, they look like similar but different designs. Everything between the starter clutch and the alternator rotor has different part numbers.

Between the two illustrations, I see the following differences: The male splined sleeve (2/13) looks like the splines got longer. The belleville (5/16) springs got a smaller inside diameter. Even the retainer (6/17) changed by getting thinner.

All of these changes suggest that they needed more torsional travel out of the mechanism.

I'm posting all of this because it suggests that the spline shape probably didn't change between them, meaning the parts could be easily manufactured once the splining problem was solved.

Now the question: is this a real problem or do they just spend some portion of their life polishing the two surfaces together (leaving some aluminum in the oil) then not wearing much anymore? Of do they continue to wear, destroying themselves? If it's the latter, the replacement parts could be made of steel (as they appear to be on the Harleys).

The other key question that maybe Dan could answer: who was the OEM broaching company or machine shop that made those parts? That broach is probably still sitting on a shelf somewhere and putting it back into use would be cheaper and easier than reverse engineering it.

I can't definitively say this without looking at the problem more closely but, I believe that changing the material to steel would help matters. A ramp profile change might also help reduce the wear on the rubbing surfaces.

I hate to think that entire bikes are being parted out for a few parts like that.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 07:17:09 AM by Donkey Hotey »
Greg

1525 since 2000 (Molly) 1989 since 2012 (Jennie) 0333 since 2015 (Beulah) 1663 since 2017 (Deadwood)
0738 since 2018 (Babe) 1940 since 2019 (Sinclair) 1555 since 2022 (Genesis)0315 since 2022 (Freedom)

Offline blackheart

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2017, 08:24:39 PM »
Hmmmm, thats interesting and all beliveable based on what Ive read about this drive train / engine right here on this site. 

First off, the compensator ramps cant hardly be aluminum as they would not stand up to the abuse.  I remember looking at my #307 compensator and it was good at 6500 miles service and typical design for a motorcycle engine such as an HD or other vtwin.

The comment Jamie makes is really not termed correctly.  What he is likely observing is just plain old fatigue,  which is related to contact pressure.  Now, depending upon how the ramps are made, they could be a lower carbon alloy steel such as 8620, or 4320 which when carburized and then quenched / tempered results in the well known "case hardened " part.  Sonce carbon is the principal element in steel which controls hardenability, carburizing from the outside and controlling the soak time can control the depth of case.  When heated to the appropriate temperature and quenched, only the outside surface gets hard as the lower carbon core wont harden up.  This is ideal for many a part since you have a tough core but strong, hard, and wear resistant surface.  However it could also be a direct hardening alloy such as 8650 or 4340 which is then flame hardened and or induction hardened where by you control the depth you heat the surface to control the depth of hardening.  Long story short, if the case depth is shallow and the contact stresses are high enough to result in yielding of softer material below, then it is not impossible for hardened layer to "pop off" or basically the metal below had insufficient endurance limit stress vs stress imposed upon it resulting in fatgue.  You see this in gearing and bearings all the time with rolling and sliding contact.

The reason for all this was explained right here on this site.  Dont remember the guys name but he gave the technical dialogue behind the transmission failures.   He explained the design team decided to balance the engine at just 30% which results in a very low mass moment of inertia for the crankshaft.  For reference a classic HD EVO or shovel is balnced at 58%, which basically says larger counterweights on crank.  He said they chose the 30%, which they knew was very low, to decrease the vertical shaking of the powertrain which the rider feels, and instead increase the longitudinal vibration of tge powertrain which the rider doesn't feel.  This to me answers why the EH hammers out rear wheel bearings.  With a rubber mounted powertrain with heavy fore to aft motion the stiff belt when tight resulted in excessive strain on the bearing hub and eventual loosening. 

Anyway the fellow went on to explain that this low inertia package resulted in abused/overtaxed compensators and since the compensator was unable to absorb the power impulses effectively this drove up shock loading delivered to the transmission.  Then I put 2 + 2 together and it all makes perfect sense in that fourth gear is the most common gear to get knocked off and this is due to the larger jump from 3rd to 4th gears resulting in more lugging of the engine.  So while bushing fits may have been on the loose side and normal snaprings seem cheesy,  the fact is this was an established transmission company who supplied this but an incorrect decision up at the crank is the real design flaw or root cause.

He also explained they made a running change in the ramp design on the compensator to try to help resolve the issue.  This also explains why EH for the 2000 model year made a change in engine balance,  i.e. they probably made the balance factor as big as possible for the crank forging they had.

Also, I've experienced an 08 HD with the "bum" compensator issue.  At 90,000 miles it was pretty well worn out and caused starter engagement issues and this became a problem when HD upped the anti in 07 and went to the 96" motor.  It took several years but now they use the high end race use compensator marketed under their screaming eagle banner in prior years.

It almost sounds to me like this EH compensator has too shallow a case depth or wasnt case hardened at all.

Ill have to check mine out this winter.  THe HD ramp BTW was in perfect shape. It was worn in the bellville spring area and center bore area.  If i can dig it up and take it to work and shoot it with the XRF to see what alloy it is although i won't know the carbon content from this.

S/N 0307, 14th X assembled factory demonstrator

Offline wytfut

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 07:08:58 AM »
They are heavy, pretty sure not aluminum..
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Offline Donkey Hotey

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2017, 10:44:29 AM »
Rick, the post you're remembering was this one by 2coolwheels:

http://www.ehforums.com/ehwebsite/forums/index.php?topic=907.msg2771#msg2771

I stumbled back upon that while hunting for other compensator history.

And Bruce: you both must be correct and I'm mis-remembering things. Both halves would need to be  steel. That made sense. That's just not what I remember. When I had 1525 apart, I must have slid the thing off as an assembly and just set it aside.

All the things Rick posted were true and applicable to this problem. But then, if the material in the oil is non-ferroous, it's not the compensator. We're back to the magnet test on the oil.

If it turns out to be magnetic and the problem is the compensator, then all of this suggests even more likely that the supplier that made all those parts is still out there and has the proper broaches.

The transmissions were bought from a transmission manufacturer. The question is did the same company also do the other miscellaneous gears throughout the engine? Gears are a specialty. The driven compensator side is a gear. The drive side is splined (also a gear manufacturing specialty). All the case hardening, selection of materials, etc, etc, would be very familiar to a gear house. Probably not hard to pay a little extra on this aftermarket go-around to get them done with tougher properties.

Then the issue is what would they consider a minimum lot size to spool up production for those one or two parts (actually two or four because these use two versions)?
Greg

1525 since 2000 (Molly) 1989 since 2012 (Jennie) 0333 since 2015 (Beulah) 1663 since 2017 (Deadwood)
0738 since 2018 (Babe) 1940 since 2019 (Sinclair) 1555 since 2022 (Genesis)0315 since 2022 (Freedom)

Berlin Bob

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2017, 04:58:57 PM »
Flush the engine with kerosene...the old way  ... take off the cam covers  and start  from  top  down...could be left over break-in  shit  thats  lurking  about  in  creveses... I have had many bikes ...and when I change the oil at  3000  miles  there is always  metalic shit  lurking about...  these engines  have  alot of  aluminum inside ... if it persists take down engine and  check to see if any  bearings have  spun... or  piston slap , oil pump, scavenge pump etc. (all aluminum) ....just  my  2 cents

berlin bob

Offline blackheart

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2017, 02:54:23 PM »
Well from what im seeing it'll be a continuous flush job.  I just cut apart the two oil filters I have run on the bike since post transmission upgrade and cleaning of sump.  Both have major amounts of what looks like aluminium on the filter media.  I am going to wash it off, try to collect and shoot it for identification.   Non magnetic is all i can tell you.  This isnt a sign of good things to come.  This last run was a 4000 mile interval, which given the speedometer is off is really around 3600 miles.  Most all this time it was driven 25 mi at a time running 65 mph and no traffic, about as good as it gets.  Shifting at about 3100 rpm never revving up tight.
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Offline wytfut

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Re: Fundamental powertrain issues / questions
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2017, 07:17:58 AM »
Rich....
I forgot your X is a low number.... Our DWS was obviously a hi number...
From what I undestand.... the low part numbered compensators are not an issue. To be honest I've havent dealt into investigating this, early vs. older. ...   
Greg....
It is very unfortunate that WE did part that DWS for the compensators. But we did get a few other parts.
We sold it to Mike Seastrom and his Wife Sandy, fully aware those parts were missing plus a few other shiney bits.
Mike said he had a lead on an X in a junkyard in his neighborhood (Dallas/fortworth).
Yesterday he messaged me, wanting to know what we have found for a machine shop, as the local junkyards X was an early one.
He also furthered his search to Jamie/Marty stock. They do not have any complete sets. They have 14 single pieces from one side, not having the other side.
In our short conversation, I realized I had fallen down on my part of the research for a machine shop here.....
So I've not got that back up (using someone I know who has work done with machine shop regularly). Remember, I said I don't know nothing about metals or machining...
Mike wants to get started on the DWS, for winter project.
My source has 3 shops to work with here in the flat lands, and if this is all a no go, .... then I'm going to give these 2 worn pieces to Mike.... He says he wants to try his local shops.... 
So on this end, that is where I am...
Rich, I'm believing that since your bike is an early, I too don't think its the compensators. And I'm hoping for the best.
Bruce
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