Transmission "Neutraling"

[2CoolWheels]

Hi Bruce (et.al.),

   This winter, I'm going to have to pull my transmission apart. Sometimes on downshifting, it goes into neutral instead of second gear. It doesn't do it on upshifts, only when downshifting. Any advise on what to look for when I get into it?
  Mike #0741

[wytfut]

Hey Mike,
     I'm fresh outta the hospital, with a brand new hip.... looking for something to occupy my itty bitty head, and up you pop.... cool...

     If I remember correctly, your tranny was updated. So from here it seems a bit odd, that you're having the false neutrals, and missed shifts around 2nd. .....

    But it could very easily be the shifter and detent spring. I have one of Bobby's, and for what it was and in its day, has worked very well. Have placed several of Jamie/Marty's shift kit, and love the end results of theirs (smoother, and proactive).
    Not witnessed John Jones as of yet, but I'm sure its a good one 2.
    Not sure what to tell you to look for, on that shifter, other than worn shims/bushings, and the spring a bit tired.   

   To replace the shfter/detent, you will not have to pull the tranny, as its mounted on the outside of the cassette.  But if you're gonna pull it anyways, that will make it easier to replace. ...

    With my bobby kit, for me to find neutral before shutting down (I'm sure this is a common move, amoung us owners) is to just quick blip the throttle to between 1.5-2k rpms. And at the same time just barely toss shifter up....
    Once you get the hang of it, you don't even think about it anymore.....

give me a shout when you get that far, and we'll verbalize what you see.....

[2CoolWheels]

Hi Bruce,
   Congratulations on the new hardware (hip)! Yep, it has been gone through by Bobby Baldwin. When I talked to him on the phone, he asked about neutraling. At the time, it wasn't doing it, so my response was that it was shifting normally aside from being difficult to find neutral at times. He recommended the same thing as you suggested, a slight increase in rpm. I haven't had trouble getting it into neutral since then.
   What happens is on acceleration, I get 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5. On deceleration, I get 5 - 4 - 3 - N - 1. I cannot get to second gear from third. I have to go down to first, then back up. This has been occurring more and more frequently.
   I'll be sure and contact you through this forum when I tackle it. I'll include pictures in case there is something awry that you might be familiar with. If nothing abnormal appears, I'll contact Bobby again.
   Thanks again, have a speedy recovery!
Mike

[AtlanticMarty]

Three thoughts:

The false neutral issue was being worked on by the factory before they closed.  They made a prototype shifter kit that had extra support for the shifter pawl arm.  Only 75 were made and only a few made it into production bikes.
 A stalwart owner got the original plans and had about 200 more kits made up which were used by ourselves and XMan.  They were sold for $350.00 as they had a lot of fiddly little parts and were expensive to make.  The second batch was not made with  tool steel but softer metal--less cost but the shift pawl arm on those reproductions  (made in spring of 2003)  will weaken and bend slightly, causing the false neutral because the arm falls to the side of the shift detent wheel--which was the original problem.  It does not normally cause a gear to be missed entirely though.  We have used a simpler, more economical fix since 2003 when we were informed of the material change.   

The rivet type connector on the shifter pawl arm can loosen and will eventually come apart if not corrected.  Check the blow up diagram in the parts catalog.  Have seen 3 catastrophic failures this past year because it contacts the back side of the clutch basket and can cause it to crack.  Prior to total disengagement you can sometimes hear a tick noise from the primary/clutch location while cruising.  If so, park it and fix it immediately.

We have had a number of bikes in the shop that had transmissions done elsewhere.  We are seeing problems with the bushings having been cut too tight and they are breaking out of the gear and leave the gear spinning on the shaft--some bushings have gaulded to the shaft.  Easy enough to see if you have the transmission out.  This mainly affects the 2nd gear.  Probably get 3-4 a year like this.

Call us if you need more information:

Atlantic Marty

[2CoolWheels]

Marty,
   Thanks for the information, it's greatly appreciated! I haven't torn it apart yet, but I will soon. I purchased a set of gears from Rick Wawrzyniak for a great price. But it sounds more likely I'll need the pawl, bushings and other smaller parts. I'll contact you once I get it apart.
   Mike

[wytfut]

That would be Jamie..... Marty is his wife that answers the phone.... I know, I did it too, way back when....
Bruce

[2CoolWheels]

Ooops, my apologies! Jamie, many thanks!!

[Traveller]

Actually guys, that was Marty. She is as much a gearhead as I am.

Keep in mind that the gear set that you purchased from Waz, (which is a great deal), has the OEM bushings which will need to be replaced with solid bushings that are properly fitted to the shafts. 

Ride Safe,
Jamie

[wytfut]

interesting what old age does to a dude... hell it even says Marty.... LOL

[2CoolWheels]

Okay, back to this topic! I've finally removed the transmission cassette, now that I bought another X to ride, and fabricated some tools. From what I can see, the shifter is actually downshifting past second gear and into neutral. The roller sits firmly in the neutral detent. I can find no visible problems with the gears and how they slide on the shafts, shift forks, or anything in that area of the trans. I did notice a lot of play in the shift shaft that actuates the shift pawl. I also noticed a rather worn spot where the shift pawls stops in the down position, allowing it to overtravel just slightly. I suspect the combination of the two is the cause of my neutraling problem. I doesn't happen on upshift because the pawl stop in the up direction isn't worn like the down stop. I haven't yet removed the shift shaft, I hope there is an easily replaceable bushing in there. Anybody out there seen anything similar?

   Mike #741 #901

[2CoolWheels]

And a question....I remember reading about some of the other Xer's installing shift kits of some kind in their bikes. I think Bobby Baldwin had one available, and someone else. Does anybody know off the top of their head who made these "kits" and if there are any still available?

[2CoolWheels]

This is the stop I was referring to. Upon closer inspection, the wear was pretty minimal. I removed it and installed a very thin washer behind it so that when tight, the surfaces would be oriented differently.

[2CoolWheels]

Then, I attempted to increase the spring tension on the roller arm that rides in the detents in the drum. I notched the little bracket that the bottom of the spring attaches to. In the close up, you can see the original hole the spring attached to about an eighth of an inch above the notch it's in. It shifts noticeably firmer now, but hasn't once bypassed second and gone into neutral since I did this. If I don't hear any feedback to the contrary, I'll install it, put the bike together and see how it goes.

[Donkey Hotey]

Two thoughts and people can spear me since my knowledge comes from other bikes, not the EH:

1) I would not run that shift return spring like that. I'd either make a new bracket with a hole in it, weld a loop around where you want it to go and drill through that, or something. It just looks like it's going to come unhooked and that will not be good.

Altnernately: go to the Century Spring website:

http://www.centuryspring.com/

Use their spring selector to match up what you have. If you match the length and wire diameter, it's going to be plenty close enough. Once you have the number in hand, McMaster can order it for you. I think Century has a minimum buy. If you really want to make it stiffer, select a slightly larger wire diameter or slightly shorter stacked length. Don't go nuts because small changes will make it shift even harder.

Is the spring weakened (coils don't pack tight when you remove it)?

2) the detent adjuster: isn't that thing offset and adjustable? On all the other motorcycle transmissions I ever worked on, that had an offset pin and a lock nut. You put the transmission in 3rd or 4th gear, then adjusted the position of that pin so that the shifter hooks had identical gaps to the pins on the drum. Those gaps control upshifting vs downshifting and set the travel limits. If yours isn't perfectly centered, that would absolutely cause the symptoms you're describing.

[wytfut]

Mike....
   you're much more into engineering than I on this issue.... so I can't really comment if this is good or not....
   but from the picture... that spring is in the "relaxed" position as it sits there? ....
   Looks like a simple fix of sorts.....
   very cool thoughts though....
Bruce