Setting Cam Timing After Engine Teardown

[Donkey Hotey]

I have a copy of the unfinished service manual and had assumed that it included the section on how to reinstall the cams but, I was mistaken (I guess it would have been in Section 6).

In the interest of recording it here for future owners, how does one reset the cam timing on this engine and what is the proper torque for the cylinder head bolts? I am a week from putting 1525 back together and would like some hint as to which sets of marks need to be lined up.

Thanks in advance,

[wytfut]

I've got specific instructions directly from Jamie... that work well.... I'll type them out for you tonight when I get home from work....

[wytfut]

sorry got home to late... will get to you .... just not tonite..

[wytfut]

This was about 5 years back when I lost a head gasket....
verbatim from Jamie's email to me.... and its much simpler than it looks on paper..

"Don't worry about the paint marks. They are only to aid alignment as the lower cam cover hides the stamped marks in the cam drive sprockets.""

"" 1. Turn the engine over to line up the "F" hash mark on the cam drive gear (Bruce insert F as in front cylinder).... behind thescavenge pump.... with the verital mark on the case.""

""2. Line up the "f" hash mark on the idler gear with the mark on the cylinder head. (Bruce insert.. front head)""

"" 3. Instal exhaust cam with the 0e marks on the cam gear lining up with the corresponding marks on the idler gear""

""4. Instal the intake cam with the 0i marks on the cam gear lining up with the corresponding marks on the idler gear""

""5. Turn the engine 270 degrees and line up the "R" hash mark on the cam drive gear with the vertical mark on the case.  (insert .... R as in rear)""

""6. Line up the R hash mark on the idler gear with the mark on the cylinder head.""

""7. Install exhaust cam withe 0e marks on the cam gear lining up with the corresponding marks on the idler gear.""

"" 8. Install intake cam with the oi marks on the cam gear lining up with the corresponding marks on the idler gear"" ...

Bruce here.... I remember this well.... and got a bit lost.... as I couldn't see the marks on the cam, due to the fact that the lower cam covers block your veiw, and if I remember correctly, for the cams to sit on the heads with chains, the lower cam cover has to be in place.... but made out well, and still running very nice.....

[Donkey Hotey]

Thank you Bruce (and Jamie) for the instructions. I'll take pictures when I assemble it and post it here for the archive.

I knew that since the cam sprockets were the same for front and rear cylinders that there had to be either multiple marks on the cams or the need to time each cylinder separately.

I guess there's the potential to just time one cylinder 50 degrees after the other and make a big-bang motor out of it...well...except for needing to change the injection and ignition timing. 

Thanks again!

[wytfut]

whoops... forgot the torque values.... I'll try to check that out within the next few days...

Greg.... why'd you pull your heads....

if its the rear jug... and it was a head gasket... there is something you need to know....

[Donkey Hotey]

Both cylinders are off. What do I need to know? It was for a cracked head, not leaking gaskets.

[Jumper]

Umm... Since your here.... Get some "Time-Zerts" not heli coils and repair/replace the head bolt threads. Chances are pretty good that the last one you torque will be the one that pulls out. THEN.. Get some of the head studs off of Jamie. Studs vs Head bolts = less strain on the threads.
Again, Call Jamie and pick his brain, He'll explain in more detail...
Seeing as where you have the cylinders off, now is the time... Might as well do the upgrades that are easy to do since you've got it torn down this far...

Jumper

[Donkey Hotey]

I appreciate it Jumper and since this discussion will serve others in the future...

I recently had this discussion with Marty. The problem? I don't want to remove the engine from the frame and she said the engine had to be out to get the heads down over them.

I'm fairly careful with warming up all of my bikes, especially the air cooled ones. In case anybody is reading this and thinks pulled studs are exclusive to Excelsiors, think again. BMW Airheads are notorious for pulling cylinder studs and base gasket leaks. My Buells (Sportster engine) don't usually pull the studs but, they crush their base gaskets too.

The cause? Not slowly warming up the engine. The aluminum head and cylinder come up to temperature much faster and expand much more than the steel bolts or studs. When that happens, the forces far exceed what the threads were designed for and something has to give. Many times, it's the base gasket or head gasket that crushes, other times, the threads give out and fail.

I usually don't use more than 1/2 throttle for the first 5-10 MILES of a ride. I hate working on motorcycles when I could be riding them so, I do everything I can to keep them happy and operational.

For now, I'm going to pretend it won't happen to me and stick with the stock bolts and careful prep of the threads. I only this week convinced myself to pull the transmission out of it before restoring it to service.

Part of the reason it's been in pieces for 12 years is that deep-down I knew the engine needed to come out and get all the fixes done at once and I just don't have the time or space to do it right now.

[wytfut]

I've done the heads with engine in the frame.... its tedious... but doable. Not really all the tough... but I'm pure shade tree...I'm always trying ways to outsmart the engineers, one of my many faults...

What i wanted to warn you about... besides what jumper stated (notorious threads coming out)... many of our engines the threads in the case on the rear head (looking towards the front tire), the top left threads in the case, are not deep enough. Thus the blown gaskets in that corner...

So check the thread depth on all 4 threads. I thought maybe I had a gremlin engine, but with conversation with Jamie... a lot of the X's have this similar problem.

I'll bet you money that the threads will pull out... so just get ready to spend the bucks on  the tymesert kit, and new studs. Those bolts were most of the battle with the engine in the frame.  The studs work very well.

[Donkey Hotey]

Bruce, are you saying you DID manage to get the heads in and out with a stud kit?

You guys hand drilled those holes for the timeserts? With no drill jig? IN THE FRAME?

[wytfut]

here's how it worked for me....
The rear head is the tight one around the frame....
Trick is to take the rear mounts out, and drop engine onto floor jack.... right in the area where the engine is almost setting on the frame.... or possibly set it on the frame with some rags under it.... to protect the frame powdercoat.... watch that hydraulic clutch line and/or any wiring that may pinch!

To get the valve cover off, you'll need to make a allen head/torq head boxed end wrench. In other words tack weld your torqs/allen head shortened wrench inside a box wrench. Your's maybe either torqs or allen head... there was a change over.

With the OEM bolts in the heads.... 2 of the 4 come out just fine. 1 is a bit more difficult, with some fishing around. The 4th is the toughest.... I spent almost 1/2 hour fishing that one out... Can't remember for sure, but I may have taken one of the front mounts out too to get that last one out...... been a while.

With the studs... plenty of clearance for heads to pop off. The bolts are the clearance problems....

now as for the tymeserts....
A friend of mine always is bailing me out (a machinist of sorts), with a lot of  out of the box thinking. He got me some gun stock steel bar stock (square in shape). Cut to over fit the cases by around few inches on each side. He then drilled a shorter piece for the tymesert tooling, so they'd stay square with the surface. 2 holes involved with that short piece, as the tymesert kit has some steps to their process.... so, yeah we made a jig.
The long bar was used to hold the smaller piece, and the long bar was "chained" for a lack of better discription around the case. Yeah we used link chain.  Everything was perfectly straight with the alignment of the existing holes as we moved the smaller piece hole to hole. And nothing moved around as we did this. ...
This is when I discoverd that the one hole was not as deep.  And had to drill it deeper to fit the tymesert and stud. I thought I had a fluke engine... but according to Jamie... many are that way.

I've got about 15k miles on 525 since reassembled.

Once I got that head and jug off, and found that shallow hole.... my leak was right on the money to where the shallow hole issue was...   no way could it be torqued correctly, as the bolt had bottomed out. it wasn't an assembly or wear issue, it was a machining issue...

Anyone wanna borrow this shade tree tymesert kit with jig is more than welcome to... pay for postage, its yours to borrow.  And all you'd have to buy would be the tymeserts only (around a dollar/piece). The tymesert kit is probably around 70 bux now, and I've only used it for those 4 studs, its like new yet. Please keep in mind that gun stock isn't lite in weight, but is shippable... guessing less than 10 pounds....

FlatlandersupportingXworld.... Bruce

[Donkey Hotey]

Yes, I remember getting things loose. The engine is already off on the front mounts and loose at the rear and lowered in the frame. I did the valve covers with a cut-off Torx wrench held with small visegips.

Kudos on the drill jig. If I decide to do it, I may design and make a jig of my own with all four holes in the plate. That way it could be bolted in place on the other three holes while each one was drilled to size. I was really hoping to not go there.

I guess I'll call Marty on Monday and order the stud kit. Maybe with undamaged holes, I can get the stud kit in there before they need to be bushed. Damn, another week waiting for parts.

[wytfut]

I've dealt with rusty fords for most of my adult life.... and am used to cleaning and running threads to get stuff work....

those threads in the case.... well, you will be very lucky not to pull them out. I ran the OEM bolts in them 4 times.... 2 popped out right away....  with no force close to torque specs pulling against them. Just very soft material...