Author Topic: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater  (Read 7781 times)

Offline Xczar

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Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« on: August 05, 2013, 06:50:52 AM »

Howdy folks, .......... first time here/long time Resource Bd member and earlier. Going by a new handle here, but for the last 14 years, I am Skiiiii.

There was recently some discussion of the oil office`s of the Crankshaft. As luck would have it, I recently discovered my stator was burnt up. Even the connector was burnt up to the regulator. I re-read back a few weeks on the Resource Bd of what was said of the possible modification to this orifice. Seemed the discussion took a dead end when it was asked to come here and ask directly why the passages should be left as they were, with no modification. So with my bike still open, I figure why not come here and ask.

I first discovered that there were two crankshaft designs. The later version (I believe s/n 511 and up? From the parts manual) has the crank shaft bolt with an orifice at the end. Oil needs to pass this orifice first, go thru the dimensions of the bolt, thru the side of the crank shaft, then finally out the side of the Alternator/Rotor.
The earlier version of the crank shaft simply has a wide open crank shaft center (+-3/16"), with a orifice in the side of the crankshaft (.02 in.), which then passes thru to the opening of the alternator/rotor.

- My first question is why the change in design after the 511 bike? And, are these two designs the same flow?

- Secondly, it is strongly mentioned here to not increase the oiling to these ports. Is there oil pressure testing that was done to confirm this? My early version bike`s orifice is just .02. This is considerably less than the diameter of the smallest pin. Seems inadequate to oil anything let alone the stator? And, the smallest of contamination can easily plug it up. Plus, we seem to have a well pressurized oiling system, how could opening this less than a pin hole sized orifice to maybe an actual pin hole affect anything? With the long trail of oiling in this system, how can it be so balanced not to be able to increase this opening the slightest bit to help save stators and keep this part of the motor that much cooler?

- Thirdly, the version of the Transmission Removal Instructions I have, was written up by Bobby Baldwin and Co. / Resource Board. In it, it mentions doing the modifications to the crankshaft orifices. Quoting: "THE FACTORY NOW RECOMMENDS THE REMOVAL OF THIS ORIFICE TO PROVIDE MORE OIL DELIVERY TO THE STATOR FOR COOLING PURPOSES". Was there factory engineering/testing involved with this quote?
These instructions go on to mention that on the early bikes, the set screw orifice should be removed at the end of the crankshaft. But his set screw has no orifice and if removed will be left with a large (+- 3/16") hole dumping out the end of the shaft. Clearly, this would not be acceptable in anyone`s mind.

Is it possible that the concern is really people following the instructions from the Transmission Removal Instructions on the early bikes only? Opening this set screw would definitely affect the pressure.

But with the newer bike design mod, seems the largest passage would not be detrimental. As Jim McCarthy mentioned from his oil pressure testing?

Is there other testing that was done?






Offline wytfut

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2013, 07:09:13 PM »
Welcome serge!
   Bruce whitefoot here.
   I tried to follow along on the resource board on that thread.....  But I was getting more confused and bored as it went.....   
   Jim did spot that particular info on this site.... Which means he knows more about this site than I do. But pretty sure any one would do better than I here.... Being I'm primitive with most things, but especially computer stuff....

    I've done 5 tranny updates.... And to tell you the truth I don't remember what we did with the newer ones..... But I'm pretty sure we opened up all of the orfices.... New or old by the stator.  Just stating a fact and I'm not looking for an arguement either way....

     Only other souce for info here would be Jamie.... So I'll jingle his bells and see what he does and thoughts....  Hang in there skiii

Bruce
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Offline Xczar

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2013, 05:22:03 AM »

Hi Bruce,

Sorry for the somewhat long/detailed posts earier on the RB. Just trying to be as clear as I can. And I`m with you, "I`m not trying to start anything" either, just trying to figure out what`s best for my bike/all SX`s. I`m only diving into this now because this issue effected me now. Seems important for all of us?

This is what I read here in the 'Tech' section, and what I believe Jim was talking about:

"STATOR BOLT OIL RESTRICTOR ORIFICE/OIL PUMP SPRING: There are some shops and individuals that have been misinformed about the oiling system and make modifications they call updates that are detrimental to the motorcycle. One of these is alterations to the oil pump spring, which is not necessary or recommended. The other--more serious--issue is removing the oil restrictor (or drilling it oversize) in the stator bolt. The stated purpose of removing this restrictor is to push more oil to the stator to help cool it...when in reality the offset is that you are lowering oil volume and pressure to the rest of the engine and transmission. Removing the restrictor is similar to uncapping the end of a garden hose, and pressure is not allowed to build. One of the primary purposes of this restrictor is to allow the oil pump to build oil pressure for the transmission, rod bearings, overhead valve train, etc... If you had work on your bike by John's Repair or some other shops that routinely make this modification, you should have your bike returned to OEM specs. Atlantic EH or EH Road Service can do this for you. "

Offline wytfut

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2013, 09:03:50 PM »
Yeah i was following along on the resource board.... Its one of those topics that i just stay out of.

Oil, tires, aftermarket toys, etc.... I have no problem with anyone stating what they believe is best..... Proven or not......   As we need input for all of us.... Obviously we as owners want to what we believe what is rite for our machines....   But you can't sort thru the emotional, and you are several hundred miles away from a gathering... You make due with what you can.

My problem is when who ever is stating their take, and they demand it as so. Right or wrong the idea maybe.... I'll instantly question its worth to myself.

Dan has maintained a nice mellow forum site here.... And I hope to keep it that way. Its friendly, differences of opinion are stated, and any X owner will probably get a good answer, if I have any thing to do with it.

I'm no wizard at these bikes, but I learn more all the time...... X world is a pretty good group of folks..

Jamie will probably be answering within the next day or so.... I did fire off an email to him..

Bruce.    FlatlandersupportingXworld
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Offline Traveller

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2013, 07:51:10 AM »
Subject: Removing or enlarging the Stator oil feed orifice

I think this poor horse has been beaten to death, but I'll add my 2 cents worth.

I don't do it! The engineers at Excelsior-Henderson took great pains to balance the oil system in our motors and I've never found any evidence to suggest that they were not satisfied with their results.

Does anyone really believe that squirting hot oil on a hot stator will make it run cooler? Proven methods to reduce operating temperature throughout the SuperX motor are to; install a fan assisted oil cooler and the latest SuperXtune program, use the best quality fully synthetic oil and filter, and reduce the electrical load where possible.

In my thirteen years of servicing hundreds of Excelsior-Hendersons I have not seen any advantage to changing the size of the oil orifice. I have witnessed a greater stator failure rate on bikes that have implemented this modification than those that remain stock.

As to how this rumor got started..., it came from our beloved Dr. Dave who was the warranty clerk at E-H and the last man left standing at the factory a year and a half after it's closure. Manning the phone, he did his very best to help all the E-H owners orphaned by the failure of the company and abandoned by most of the dealers. I say this not to lay blame, but to recognize the level of concern and commitment that Dave felt towards us and the bikes that he was so proud of. I believe that in his Herculean effort to help, he was misquoted and this urban legend was born. Unfortunately it was incorporated into the repertoire of other E-H service providers without proper vetting.

Onward and Upward,
Jamie Jones
Atlantic E-H

Offline sdhow

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2013, 01:48:06 PM »
Ok, Jamie...I've read your pearls of wisdom.

I can only share my experience with everyone.  I, too, used the RB instructions on transmission removal and made the oil orfice modification on both bikes, one early (386) and one late (580), as I, too, was led to believe this was a recommendation coming from factory engineers. 

As 580 only has the original miles from it's first week of purchase (off the showroom floor at HD of Dallas and up to OK, where I was working for a week before shipping it home...hence it's nickname "Queen"-short for Garage Queen), my experience with that bike is none.  But for 386, I have had a litany of stator replacements (3 in 36k miles) and have just purchased another one from Atlantic EH.  Thanks, Marty! ;)

Each time, I have seen a build up of "coke" from motor oil on the failed stator, lending credibility to Sir Jamie's educated opinion and experience.  I'm sure I've fried some of those expensive batteries along the way, too.  This said, I'll follow his recommendation and put it back to the original specifications.

Note: Marty completely disagrees with Jamie.  She now has an ample supply of stators, and as this is a lucrative profit center for the parts and service departments, says to feel free to leave the orfice wide open and replace your stator every 8-10k miles...jk  :o

Offline Jumper

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 03:28:48 PM »
Hey Sean... I may be wrong, but I think that Coking on the stator is more a sign of really hot oil... The last 3? stators I've replace were not coked up like the early ones I had before SuperXTune, NFP,Etc and other Mods were done. I still go through Stators, just not coked up. And I've been using Mobil 1 20-50 V-twin for the past 14 years.. ( No Bruce, I am NOT starting an Oil war....) hehehe

Jumper

Offline sdhow

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2013, 07:38:22 PM »
Not sure what else it could be then.  It's got the tune, oil cooler, etc....and has had 20W-50 synthetic since the second oil change (first was at 500 miles, I got it with 900 miles).  It doesn't seem to run particularly hot, at least compared to other Xs.  I'm not running excessive power suckers, but I do have the passing lights and the fan on it.

Jamie seemed to think hot oil being directed back to the stator could be, at the least, compounding the problem. 

Offline Xczar

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2013, 06:49:57 AM »

Sean, ..............

Can I ask what exactly did you do to 386?

As per the Trans Removal Instr., the set screw orifice was to be removed at the end of the crankshaft. Even though there is no orifice there.

Did you remove this set screw at the end of the crankshaft, or the orifice in the side of the crankshaft, or both?

How many miles do you have riding like this?

Thanks Sean.

For what it`s worth, I`m not trying to 'Beat This Horse To Death'. I have pretty much read every post on the Resorce Board throughout the years and even recently pulled up this discussion from 2002. From what I can tell, nothing was ever fully determined the fix for this. Certainly changing stators 11+ years later regularly is not a fix.

Guess because this is my first stator problem, I want to know as much as I can.

Offline sdhow

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2013, 12:01:22 PM »
Serge,

Can't remember exactly, as it's been over a decade now, but I believe one orfice location applied to the early models, the other for the later ones.  If I recall, the instructions on the RB referenced the later model crankshaft.  I did one of each, as I have one bike of each style.  I remember something about orienting the oil orfice on the side of the early crankshaft 180 degrees to the orfice on the rotor, to keep the oil from flowing straight through and rather around the inside of the rotor before exiting.

386 has been running this way for over 36k miles, so...

Offline Xczar

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2013, 03:12:59 PM »

Well,......... if you pulled the set screw out of the crankshaft, you would have had a large stream of oil shoot thru the stator, probably not even touching the top of it, and down the primary cover wall to the bottom of the stator, or in the oil bath.

Does anyone know the oil level height in reference to the crankshaft? Judging from the condition of the burnt stator, looks like the level should be right at the crankshaft?

Offline Traveller

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2013, 08:26:54 AM »
Serge,

The oil level in the primary should stay about the same as the scavenge pump pick-up tube. Provided your scavenge pump circuit is working properly.

This seems a good time to mention that charging system problems should be properly investigated by following the diagnostic tree in the E-H Service Manual, so that the actual cause of failure may be ascertained.

Jamie

Offline deadwoodsp

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2013, 11:28:49 AM »
First off I am not trying to piss on any ones shoes, just posting my own experience.  I had my tranny rebushed in 2003 or so and followed the most current recommendations.  Shift kit, oil pick up mod, Jag oil cooler, etc...  I also pulled the brass orifice in the end of the crank shaft.  I also put a washer in the oil pressure relief valve.  That was at 10000 miles I now have over 31000 on 1868.  The only problems I have observed are oil pressure senders.  It seems to have an appetite for those ;D  I have been through 6 or 7 of those.  But I am on the original stator and battery.  I know now that I posted this I just as well get both of those coming.  They will probably go to hell now.

Offline Traveller

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2013, 07:16:03 PM »
deadwoodsp,

You won't be pissing on anyones shoes.  I for one welcome valuable information from fellow bike owners.  It's good to know that the early modifications have worked well for you. 

One important thing I have learned working on our bikes for 13 years is no two Excelsior- Hendersons are the same.  However, when I keep seeing a specific failure repeated I take a good look at the whole bike in an effort to figure out what it has in common with others that had the same issue.  My observations echo my experience with 100s of bikes that have been through my shop. 

Ride Safe,
Jamie

Offline XHanlon

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Re: Crankshaft Oiling To Stater
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2013, 01:14:58 AM »
The good news in all of this, the motorcycles will run fine either way as there are way too many variables to isolate and determine the average optimum for each.

What is generally not known outside of the internal EH engineering, the oil pump was sized to the motor/transmission configuration, and was not oversized.  This becomes important as over time the engine/tranny wears, and removing or enlarging any oil galleries, the oil pump was not designed to accommodate for all of this.  Also, the oil cooler requires additional volume, so the pump is maxed out. I confirmed this with more than one engineer at EH. For those who post-production studies our engine oiling configuration recognizes we did not have the oiling system finely tuned yet, and one of the things we would have done was oversize the oil pump to accommodate for more volume.  Generally any pressure issue is more of a volume challenge--you need the volume to build the pressure.

Now, does this mean your bike needs this or that?  It will work fine and becomes a matter of personal preference.  Generally, many bikes now have the rebushed transmission gears and the oil pickup tube installed, and both of those help balance the oil flow characteristics. And the Super X tune helps reduce heat which in turn keeps the oil cooler and also the stator cooler as not building as much heat. So combining all these factors together, generally you will get better longevity to the stator irregardless of with or without the oil restriction.

Yes, it is a fact that there was a rumor the factory authorized to remove the restriction--As our VP of Engineering would say...it's true that its a rumor, but the rumor is not true.  This was only a test as we routinely tested various options internally to test for limits and reactions. It was never an authorized protocol intended to be distributed to all owners of bikes. But at this point it really doesn't matter, as field experience will show the bikes will continue to run either way. Internal results indicated this too. So it is with many things.

Again, to summarize, the recommendation is the bike does not need the restriction removed--and it will run either way!  If yours is removed, leave it if you like.  Engines have a lot of variables that don't need to all be perfect to run.  There are no hard set rules on this.  At the OEM factory level, we determined no confirmed benefit from removing the orifice, and opted to ensure the engine and transmission were the primary components for the pressure fed oiling system, so we decided to leave the restriction in as it was originally designed per engineering.  Picking between the engine/tranny/stator, we believed the stator was less relevant and could more readily be replaced. In addition, late in the game the engineers also added a restriction (small roll pin) to the clutch input shaft in an effort to "hold" the oil in the engine/transmission.  The final two exit points on the oiling system are the stator bolt in the engine, and the input shaft of the transmission, so we add a restriction there as well. My bike from the factory was outfitted this way as I had the engineers do this per their recommendations at the time.  I do this to all my bikes now. Doesn't mean anyone else has to.

One of the used bikes I purchased had all the "updates" done, and yet didn't seem up to par of my factory setup on my other bikes and did have more valve train noise, so I pulled it all apart. Rebushed the tranny gears, replaced oil pickup tube, and put the oil orifice back in (was removed previously).  Now in this bike, it made a difference in less valve train noise and less vibration due to the properly bushed gears and everything else we did.  This doesn't mean all bikes need to be like this. Bike ran before I did this, and ran fine after.

I would not suggest that one way is right and another is wrong...after all an engine will run either way. It will run with 15 psi or 45 psi of oil. Will run with 10/40w or 20/50w.  With 20 psi or 40 psi in tires.  With or without an oil cooler.  These are simply recommendations.  None of us should state emphatically that there is only one way to do this. Perhaps some of us need a definitive absolute statement of do this or do that.  Regarding oil, well make sure you do have oil in the crankcase, that is an absolute. Whether it is Amsoil or Valvoline, therein becomes less of an absolute and more of a personal preference.  I would put the oil restriction orifice in the personal preference category, and with my bikes and our shop, we "prefer" to keep the stock restrictions in place, and add another restriction at the clutch input shaft.

Hope this helps clarify.

Onward & upward.
Dan Hanlon
Founder