Author Topic: Super X vs V92  (Read 8265 times)

Offline 2CoolWheels

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Super X vs V92
« on: September 08, 2016, 09:19:00 AM »
   Since I own and work on multiple bikes, I wrote this article comparing our beloved Super X's to the other new brand that was being developed at the same time as EH:

Excelsior-Henderson Super-X 
VS
Victory V92C
   The late 80's and early 90's saw an improved economy, and more people purchasing motorcycles. Sales at the local bike shops were high, and Harley Davidson was the sole American brand of full sized cruiser. They were the sales leader for that category, beating out all the metric motorcycles.
   Many entrepreneurs saw that there was room for some competition in the American made bike market, especially after being put on a waiting list to purchase a new Harley. Dan Hanlon was one such entrepreneur.
    A man named Philip Zanghi along with a few others attempted to resurect the Indian brand, but was convicted of fraud. This was followed by an attempt by Eller industries in 98, then by a merger company in 99. Eventually the new Indian would fail, change hands, and eventually get purchased by Polaris industries. We won't focus on the Indians of the late 90's because the early production bikes used an S&S Harley clone engine, and by the early 2000's their own proprietary engine was prone to serious problems. And, I am not nearly as familiar with these bikes.
     I have read Dan Hanlon's book and many articles about the forming, production, and eventual end of Excelsior-Henderson. I continue to be amazed at what the Hanlon's and their team were able to accomplish under the market conditions of the time. I have also read a book and various articles about the formation of the Victory Motorcycle division of Polaris Industries. There are a lot of parallels, but also some significant differences.
     Like the Hanlon Motorcycle Company, Victory wanted to create a completely new, proprietary American cruiser. At almost the same time as EH, they were designing the frame, engine and other components. They were sourcing vendors and attempting to lay out a dealership plan. It's an interesting read, especially if you have already read Dan's book.
    The thing that struck me, however, was that no matter how constrained Victory was, they always had a team of successful marketing and engineering people to fall back on. If their own sub-division ran into a stumbling block, they called ma-Polaris for help. Excelsior-Henderson did not have this luxury, and had to rely on their own team and investors to continue their business plan.
    By 1998, both companies developed very well designed machines, and Harley now had real competition! That's not to say that the metrics didn't provide competition, but most hard-core bikers, and patriot motorcyclists preferred machines from an American firm.
    So, long story shortened slightly, here are my observations: Both EH and Victory used a 4 valve, overhead cam configuration. EH used 2 cams per head, Victory a single. Both were among the largest displacement engines of the time. Both companies vehicle's had a gear driven primary and an integral transmission case. They were also air and oil cooled. The early Victorys were prone to transmission problems, including premature wear in the shift forks and teeth sheering from the gears. Excelsior Henderson had an undersized transmission bushing issue, but only a very few actual transmission failures. Virtually all the Victorys failed or would fail without the recall that Victory implemented. (There are still a lot of Victorys out there that never had the recall, and a savy Victory buyer avoids them because of lack of parts availability to upgrade them).
    Both EH and Victory  had wiring problems. Looking at my bikes, I see the same, thin insulation in the harnesses. They may have even had some of the same vendors.
    Here's where the Excelsior Henderson design was superior: EH used a transmission cassette design. The entire gear set can be removed through the primary opening after removing the compensator and clutch. This made retrofitting the bushings a fairly routine job. Whereas with the Victory, the engine must be removed, disassembled and the cases split to access the gears! Major, major repair. Days instead of hours!
    An area where Excelsior-Henderson could have done a better job was cooling, as most of us owners already know. A large cooler should have been standard on the bike, instead of a dealer added accessory. Victory did a good job, some say too good. In cooler climates, the V92 engine never fully warms up.
    Excelsior-Henderson  has anti-dive, as a result of their superior front suspension design, Victory does not.
   Excelsior-Henderson utilizes closed loop EFI, superior to Victory's open loop. You have to actuate a throttle idle lever to start the bike....kind of like a choke. Closed loop in the EH produces better fuel economy and can be mapped to meet stricter emissions standards if necessary. Both engines perform very similarly, even though the Victory is  6 cu. in. larger.
   Victory engineered a counter-balance shaft to offset engine vibration, and solid mounted their engine to the frame as a structural member. Excelsior-Henderson chose to utilize cushioned mounts to offset vibration instead.
    Both bikes had a retro look, but where Excelsior-Henderson really prevailed was in styling. The bike stands out in a crowd with it's large dynamic front suspension. The nicely sculpted engine fits the bikes body lines, and the notches in the tank to accommodate the engine look retro-modern. The forks through the fenders, gas tank mounted instrumentation, and other unique styling queues have made Excelsior Henderson one of the most unique and beautiful bikes out there.
   Victory on the other hand, well.... critics say their original engine reminded them of a self-propelled air compressor. The cylinders were basically two squarish finned blocks, no styling whatever. The tank was a typical teardrop shape, but didn't match the frame or engines lines. The speedometer was built into the headlamp nacelle, like an old British bike, but not particularly attractive. The fenders were bland, as were the cast wheels. Even though it was a new state of the art bike, it would easily be overlooked in a parking lot full of other bikes.
   Since then, Victory has upped their game, and went for a very modern, aerodynamic style as opposed to the classic look of the V92 series bikes. They have also improved their faulty transmissions greatly, as well as their electrical systems. The newer Victorys are fantastic machines, better in my opinion than any Harley.         
    Here's what absolutely kills me: If EH had remained in business, they too would have refined their bikes. Can you imagine what a fantastic, superior, and beautiful bike a 2017 Excelsior Henderson would be!
   


« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 09:29:17 AM by 2CoolWheels »

Berlin Bob

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Re: Super X vs V92
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 05:56:04 PM »
Could not have said it better myself !!!!!   if they would have survived,  I agree  they would be on top

of all the others ...and farther .,..  I love these bikes , not because grandaddy was a dealer for autocycles, but because ...these were very well engineered for the times ....it took harley a 100 yrs.
to get the oil leak fixed ...i just wish  EH could have made it ... so DAN , with all the rights purchased
to EH ...lets say we start back up .............HEHEHE

Offline wytfut

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Re: Super X vs V92
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 06:03:40 PM »
👍
Bruce
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Offline blackheart

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Re: Super X vs V92
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2016, 08:17:39 PM »
I've got a mid 2000's V92 as an 05 V92TC, so it has the revised engine & updates on transmission.  I agree with most of what you say, but not quite all.  The EH transmission concept was very wise of EH as they did not have to engineer the set up and I can say it shifts far superior to even the 05 V92, although the ratio splits are not uniform which is odd and results in the tendency to lug the engine going from 3rd to 4th.  The whole bush in thing seems to be a mismatch in tolerances it seems like both the bushings and shaft journals had the oil clearance sized in resulting in excess clearance.

The engine cooling was much better thought out on the victory, with a separate pump to circulate oil for cooling.  Are the EH heads even drilled for oil circulation?

The engine mounting is not well designed on the EH given no counterbalances.  This is why the wheel bearings get knocked out when belts are tightened where they should be, the excessive freedom of movement transfers extreme loads into the bearings and loosens the fit to the hub.  This probably wouldn't have been easy to get out of, they really needed to counter balance the engine.

The primary gears on the victory drive the counter balance shaft but are extremely rough sounding, Polaris should get this fixed.

Styling is as you say, far better on the EH for sure.

I'd say Polaris should pick up the name and refine a few things like they did Indian
S/N 0307, 14th X assembled factory demonstrator

Offline 2CoolWheels

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Re: Super X vs V92
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 09:43:15 AM »
Blackheart,
   You may be interested in this comment by Jim McCarthy, who is an engineer that worked on the EH developement in response to my article.

  " Mike, thanks for taking the time to do a proper assessment of the motorcycle landscape and the Excelsior Henderson. It should also be noted that premature transmission failure was primarily caused by the balance factor of the crankshaft and a torsional compensator that was ill suited for the job. After doing a through engineering analysis of the EH Powertrain system (back-in-the-day), it seemed pretty clear that the crankshaft balance factor was the real smoking gun. I verified my suspicions by talking to Allan Hurd who was the head of EH Engineering and subsequently the Head of Polaris Engineering until his retirement in 2011. Allan said they purposely deviated from engineering convention with the crankshaft balance factor in order to reduce vertical vibration, which the rider feels, in exchange for an increase in longitudinal vibration which the rider doesn't feel. I then pointed out that decreasing the crankshaft balance factor would result in an increased torsional pulse that would be difficult to dampen with the torsional compensator and was probably the most significant factor in causing the 4th gear input bushing to prematurely fail; Allan agreed with my assessment. Here is the summary I generated back when I originally analyzed the EH transmission failures.

Transmission Type: Insaka cassette style
Problem: Transmission lock-up during operation.
Classification: Infant mortality failure, low mileage under 5K
Effected Components: 4th gear input bushing, gear retaining clip.
Hierarchy of contributing factors: 1) Torsional vibration caused by 30% crank balance (% reciprocating-to-rotational), 2) Torsional dampener mirco finish on mating ramp lobes (P/N 3399-0060, 3399-0059), 3) Gear bushing I.D. clearance to Input shaft O.D., 4) Bushing material composition and I.D. concentricity, 4) Gear retaining clip type, i.e. split ring vs. spiral lock.

Fortunately for EH riders, as the compensator mating ramp surfaces break-in (3K miles) the torsional force applied to the transmission input shaft is reduced. This in conjunction with properly sized aluminum-bronze bushings for all input gears, and Spiral-Lock retaining rings have eliminated transmission lock-up failures.

If you've ever wondered why the vibration on a 3K+ mile Super X feels so much smoother than a new low mileage one, it's the torsional compensator breaking-in."

Offline blackheart

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Re: Super X vs V92
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2016, 06:18:23 PM »
2CoolWheels:

That's good information and what Jim presents makes sense and aligns with some of the "wives tales" out there about lugging the engine is what resulted in some of the early failures, etc.  I'm glad so see he felt aluminum bronze was the bushing material of choice.  This is what I used when I rebushed my transmission but was just telling a group of X-riders this weekend at a get together I'm not sure that was a wise choice as if the shafts aren't sufficiently hardened they would die a quick death as aluminum bronze is very aggressive material and finely finished case hardened shafts of 60 Rockwell C is an absolute must.

It is also interesting about the balance factor.  That is very low.  By comparison an HD engine in the old day was balanced at 58% (assuming the calc. to come up with the "100%" balance factor is the same way you do a V8 (1/2 reciprocating + all rotating)).  I did not realize one would feel the up and down vibration more than fore to aft, but it makes sense.  This also explains the tendency for those who run a tighter belt tension to knock out the rear wheel bearings as the increased longitudinal (fore to aft) vibration results in highly variable and harsh loading conditions on the bearing.  It may also explain why belts can sometimes fail rather early which exhibiting few other obvious issues.  We had one in our group break this weekend unexpectedly with only 15k miles on it.  These belts typically run in excess of 100k miles on other bike makes such as early Kawasaki's, Victory, etc.

It's good to get solid technical information to help explain some of our issues us owners are dealing with on a periodic basis as we ride our bikes.

I don't ride my EH much as I still need to do the throttle body / AC mount upgrade as well as the ignition switch bracket upgrade.  I plan on installing some bags and use it for daily transportation like I do my other bikes.  I average 20k a year, depending upon job assignments, and plan to put some miles on the X.  I've put well over 200k miles on MC's in the last 20 years 190k of which are on modern HD's, and 8k of which are on my recent Victory purchase, so I'm anxious for comparison purposes sake.  Like I said before, some items of the EH are superior to this 6 year newer Victory, which is a credit to the assemblers/team of EH staff.  Victory I feel tried to do most of it on their own (design/manufacturing/assy.).
S/N 0307, 14th X assembled factory demonstrator

Offline Jumper

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Re: Super X vs V92
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2016, 01:58:05 PM »
That Jim Mc. is a smart cookie!
Jumper